Apolgies For Your Delayed Afternoon Eastside Commute

[buckwacker]

I need to apologize to those getting onto 465 from 70E on the east side this afternoon. I was pulled over by a state trooper for "not wearing my seatbelt properly" at about 5:30. When he asked if I had any weapons, I answered in the affirmative and handed him my LTC. After informing him it was in the glove box, he stated that he would remove my handgun and run the serial# to ensure it wasn’t stolen. I asked him upon what authority he was able to search the effects of a law-abiding citizen who had not nor was suspected of committing a crime. He responded that he now had probable cause because I had refused a search, and that, if I continued to refuse the search, he would call asupervisor, and that "we will get that weapon and run the number". Well, six or so additional state troopers later the sergeant shows up, has a short discussion with the original officer, and then walks up to politely inform me that the officer would write me a citation for the seat belt violation after which I could be on my way. The extra 45 minutes was worth it, and kudos to the sergeant for knowing the law. Remember your rights folks. And, again, apologies to anyone who got hung up in the traffic backed up gawking at,six state troopers behind my old red F150 on the side of the road.

 

[BiscuitNaBasket]

Don't apologize! You did right!

 

[TTravis]

Next time consider just saying "there is nothing illegal in the car" and "I do not not agree to any searches for seizures".

Then ask the magic questions, "Am I being detained?" and "Am I free to go?"

You did well and hopefully several troopers learned a lesson.

 

[92ThoStro]

I'm glad I don't drive out that way anymore Shame on you

Amazing how you post this right after we just had a big thread about running the serial numbers during a traffic stop. Sounds like the trooper made the mistake of saying the wrong thing. Instead of seizing it for officer safety, for the duration of the stop, he decided to say he was seizing it to run the numbers.
On top of that, he was dumb enough to say not consenting to a search, gives him probable cause to do a search.
That's Criminal Justice 101 right there.

But he still could have seized it for officer safety, if he didnd't screw up, couldn't he? Bet he is kicking himself right now LOL

 

[TTravis]

Did you get any names?

 

[remauto1187]

Next time consider just saying "there is nothing illegal in the car" and "I do not not CONSENT to any searches for seizures".

Then ask the magic questions, "Am I being detained?" and "Am I free to go?"

You did well and hopefully several troopers learned a lesson.

Fixed it for you.

 

[w_ADAM_d88]

Kudos to you! I drove by that area about that time but I figured it was just common that everyone slows down to 5mph when they see any type of flashing lights. Not to mention the people that wait til the last 10 ft before the spilt to go from the far left lane all the way to the far right.

 

[buckwacker]

Did you get any names?

The officer's name that performed the stop is on the citation.

 

[92ThoStro]

How much is your seat belt ticket? My brother got one by local, not a trooper, and it was 25 bucks. I bet it's like 2,000 from ISP! He had his on behind his back, but the belt strap was on. He wont be doing that ever again.

 

[buckwacker]

You did well and hopefully several troopers learned a lesson.

I had asked the original trooper if he could name the Indiana code that permitted him to take my weapon without probable cause and he couldnt. The second trooper to show up offered to try to find one, but after I spoke with the seargeant, he came back up to the window and said he couldnt find one, and that "I guess you win this one". I told him I wasnt trying to be a jerk, "I just want to keep you guys honest".

I'm glad I don't drive out that way anymore Shame on you

Amazing how you post this right after we just had a big thread about running the serial numbers during a traffic stop. Sounds like the trooper made the mistake of saying the wrong thing. Instead of seizing it for officer safety, for the duration of the stop, he decided to say he was seizing it to run the numbers.
On top of that, he was dumb enough to say not consenting to a search, gives him probable cause to do a search.
That's Criminal Justice 101 right there.

But he still could have seized it for officer safety, if he didnd't screw up, couldn't he? Bet he is kicking himself right now LOL

I still dont believe an officer can take a weapon from someone with a LTC without probable cause.

 

[rsklar]

Sorry to hear about your encounter. I applaud you for knowing your rights. Given that the officer cannot search without probable cause, even if he took the firearm for "officer safety" he would still not have probable cause to run the serial number.

Unfortunately many officers are on a power trip and think they can intimidate their way to compliance from citizens.

I would follow-up this incident with a formal complaint to internal affairs. These types of incidents cannot be tolerated or condoned and when left unchecked lead to the type of abuses you were subjected to.

Good Luck!

 

[CBR1000rr]

When he asked if I had any weapons, I answered in the affirmative and handed him my LTC.

My intentions aren't to hijack your thread but if the LEO is not legally permitted to "search and confiscate" a firearm, why would they ask this question?

I ask because it seems to me that this line of questioning only has one purpose and that is to disarm law-biding citizens. We know, if asked this question, the bad guys will lie right?

 

[TTravis]

Aren't a lot of those State Troopers working along I70 actually trainees from the Indiana Law Enforcement Academy? How old was the trooper that first pulled you over?

 

[92ThoStro]

I had asked the original trooper if he could name the Indiana code that permitted him to take my weapon without probable cause and he couldnt. The second trooper to show up offered to try to find one, but after I spoke with the seargeant, he came back up to the window and said he couldnt find one, and that "I guess you win this one". I told him I wasnt trying to be a jerk, "I just want to keep you guys honest".



I still dont believe an officer can take a weapon from someone with a LTC without probable cause.

There are numerous threads on INGO where it was confiscated for officer safety. I remember one guy saying his gun was completely disassembled and handed back to him in so many pieces he couldn't fit them in his hands.

Here is the thread from the other day.

https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...se/275620-please_help_settle_an_argument.html

Here is a response from a LEO on the matter.

If I have the firearm in my possession legally and can legally carry it back to my car, then it requires no further manipulation to see the serial number and is not expanding the scope of the seizure. If I had to remove a grip or something, than yes, I am now increasing the scope of the search and seizure.

I asked

So you are saying if you temporarily seize a gun for officer safety, and sit in your vehicle, you can also legally run the serial number because it required no further manipulation, it was in plain view.

LEO stated

If the gun is legally seized, yes. I've seen nothing to the contrary from either state or federal case law.

But, since you were stopped for a seat belt violation, I did go back and visit the thread, which I had not read the newer posts in it.

Remember when I said it depends on what you got pulled over for? Richardson is one of those reasons "it depends." If Richardson had been stopped for speeding, it would have been different. He wasn't though, he was stopped for a seat belt violation. Richardson was SPECIFICALLY about a seat belt stop. "The trial court concluded that the inquiry went beyond that authorized by Indiana's Seatbelt Enforcement Act. We agree..."

Why was it just about a seat belt stop? They go on to say:

and "On the basis of the language of the statute, we agreed
with the Attorney General‟s position that “the statute requires that when a stop to determine seat belt law compliance is made, the police are strictly prohibited from determining anything else, even if other law would permit.”

Why do they say this? Because IC code SPECIFICALLY limits seat belt stops in ways other traffic stops are not:

IC 9-19-10-3.1
Stopping, inspecting, or detaining vehicle; checkpoints
Sec. 3.1. (a) Except as provided in subsection (b), a vehicle may be stopped to determine compliance with this chapter. However, a vehicle, the contents of a vehicle, the driver of a vehicle, or a passenger in a vehicle may not be inspected, searched, or detained solely because of a violation of this chapter.
(b) A law enforcement agency may not use a safety belt checkpoint to detect and issue a citation for a person's failure to comply with this chapter.

Re-read the whole case and you'll see several other cases referrenced, such as Trigg V State, that specifically address seatbelt stops. Richardson, Trigg, Etc. have aren't about securing a weapon during a traffic stop, they are specifically about under what circumstances an officer can ask questions or conduct a search not related to the seatbelt infraction on a seat belt stop.

This is pretty interesting.

 

[PKendall317]

Aren't a lot of those State Troopers working along I70 actually trainees from the Indiana Law Enforcement Academy? How old was the trooper that first pulled you over?

I don't know but that wouldn't surprise me considering the close proximity to ILEA. If they're out in patrol cars I'd imagine that they're rookies who should be accompanied by a more experienced FTO. Lastly, in Indiana, technically the moment you're shipped off to ILEA you're an employee of whatever department hired you, but you have no arrest powers until you've completed the academy, so I'm not entirely certain that a trainee pulled you over. Probably just a trooper with a big ego, or an inexperienced rookie ignorant of the law.

 

[buckwacker]

My intentions aren't to hijack your thread but if the LEO is not legally permitted to "search and confiscate" a firearm, why would they ask this question?

I ask because it seems to me that this line of questioning only has one purpose and that is to disarm law-biding citizens. We know, if asked this question, the bad guys will lie right?

I think the next time I get asked, I will simply hold up my fists and say "Yeah, Ive got these".

Aren't a lot of those State Troopers working along I70 actually trainees from the Indiana Law Enforcement Academy? How old was the trooper that first pulled you over?

I tried to make small talk with the trooper while we waited for the supervisor(not that successfully), and he said he had been with ISP for four years. Long enough to know better.

 

[PKendall317]

I think the next time I get asked, I will simply hold up my fists and say "Yeah, Ive got these".



I tried to make small talk with the trooper while we waited for the supervisor(not that successfully), and he said he had been with ISP for four years. Long enough to know better.

You know, when I hear stories like yours, I often wonder what, if any training these officers get regarding Indiana firearm law and LTCH. I'm sure it varies depending on department and whatever policy they may or may not have.

 

[fallenangel1]

I cant stop laughing at the idea of how the officer felt that the probable that he needed to search the vehicle in question was the denial of the the officers request to search the vehicle!

hey can I search your car?

NO!

Well, since you said No I now have probable cause GTFO!

Seriously?!?

I have to admit I dont know enough laws to feel as confident about doing this as the OP did .. I should really read up more and learn for my own safety if this were to ever happen to me.

 

[Roadie]

I can't help but wonder if there isn't a difference, legally speaking, between having the gun ON you in a holster, and having it in a closed glovebox.

IANAL, but I would think that in the glovebox would require permission to access, even under the guise of "Officer Safety" because the LEO has to enter the car, OPEN the glovebox, and remove the weapon..

Or am I way off base here?

 

[TTravis]

Did the trooper ask you any other questions other than "Do you have any weapons"? The reason I ask is I wonder if your LTCH came up when he ran your plate.

Did the trooper ask you to get out of your car, or did he stay with you and tell you to stay away from the glove box?

It strikes me as odd that 6 troopers showed up. There are not usually that many around which leads me to think it was a training exercise. They go back to ILEA from time to time to get their required hours of training every year.