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AK ammo question - Wolf Black Box Poly coated vs Wolf Military Classic?
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For plinking, no not really, for terminal ballistics or in some cases overall quality, yes.
It used to be without doubt that Wolf Military Classic was different and made at the Ulyanovsk plant and Wolf Black Box was made at Tula. Just like it implies, Wolf Military Classic is "mil-spec" and in the 124 gr. hollowpoint has the 8M3 bullet that is more effective in terminal ballistics (either fragments or expands under 100m from most reports). Then last year Wolf Military Classic started changing and for awhile at least with it looked like the 124 HP was really just Tula (Wolf Black Box) repackaged which could make some sense because at one point Uly's plant had a fire.
The latest rumor on WMC 124 gr. HP "Sapsan" 8MC is apparently still being brought in from Uly, it is just that they stopped using red sealant around the necks but still is suppose to have some on the primer pocket. I don't know for sure though since I haven't bought mostly because I haven't seen any, although I haven't looked to hard because I have a lot of the old stuff stockpiled back. However, I did buy a box of WMC FMJs that had no sealant around the neck nor primers lately.
Note that Uly produced stuff after a certain year (I don't know what that started but at least 2008 on) has a Wolf headstamp, not a Uly headstamp, so you can't use that to tell.
You can confirm that it is the Sapsan 8M3 bullet by taking a loupe and looking inside the hollowpoint and look at its cuts inside the jacket to encourage opening. They should be deeper than Wolf Black Box 122 gr bullets cuts which are shallower or even non-existent. Also if you pull the bullets the shape should be different and the 8M3 bullet being shorter and flat based. Of course you can cut the bullets in half to compare construction as well.
Overall, it seems modern FMJ or even "hollowpoint" (which in most Eastern stuff doesn't actually expand) is up to the M67/8M2/US made lead core FMJ designs that cause the bullet to tumble much sooner than M43 based ones that rarely tumble soon enough so most the cheap stuff works better than before. However, Chinese steel core is based on M43 and has only marginally better penetration performance making it not worth the price IMO.
One other budget god terminal performer is Brown Bear 125 gr. soft point. This was the best performer in the latest Guns and Ammo Complete Book of the AK (unfortunately the author/editor didn't test the WMC 8M3 load). Also it has the advantage in my book of being Lacquer coated which I like better than the polymer stuff Wolf uses since it gets surface rust more easily, but both still feed fine in AKs.
It used to be without doubt that Wolf Military Classic was different and made at the Ulyanovsk plant and Wolf Black Box was made at Tula. Just like it implies, Wolf Military Classic is "mil-spec" and in the 124 gr. hollowpoint has the 8M3 bullet that is more effective in terminal ballistics (either fragments or expands under 100m from most reports). Then last year Wolf Military Classic started changing and for awhile at least with it looked like the 124 HP was really just Tula (Wolf Black Box) repackaged which could make some sense because at one point Uly's plant had a fire.
The latest rumor on WMC 124 gr. HP "Sapsan" 8MC is apparently still being brought in from Uly, it is just that they stopped using red sealant around the necks but still is suppose to have some on the primer pocket. I don't know for sure though since I haven't bought mostly because I haven't seen any, although I haven't looked to hard because I have a lot of the old stuff stockpiled back. However, I did buy a box of WMC FMJs that had no sealant around the neck nor primers lately.
Note that Uly produced stuff after a certain year (I don't know what that started but at least 2008 on) has a Wolf headstamp, not a Uly headstamp, so you can't use that to tell.
You can confirm that it is the Sapsan 8M3 bullet by taking a loupe and looking inside the hollowpoint and look at its cuts inside the jacket to encourage opening. They should be deeper than Wolf Black Box 122 gr bullets cuts which are shallower or even non-existent. Also if you pull the bullets the shape should be different and the 8M3 bullet being shorter and flat based. Of course you can cut the bullets in half to compare construction as well.
Overall, it seems modern FMJ or even "hollowpoint" (which in most Eastern stuff doesn't actually expand) is up to the M67/8M2/US made lead core FMJ designs that cause the bullet to tumble much sooner than M43 based ones that rarely tumble soon enough so most the cheap stuff works better than before. However, Chinese steel core is based on M43 and has only marginally better penetration performance making it not worth the price IMO.
One other budget god terminal performer is Brown Bear 125 gr. soft point. This was the best performer in the latest Guns and Ammo Complete Book of the AK (unfortunately the author/editor didn't test the WMC 8M3 load). Also it has the advantage in my book of being Lacquer coated which I like better than the polymer stuff Wolf uses since it gets surface rust more easily, but both still feed fine in AKs.
In the 7.62x39 you really won't notice much difference between the poly coated and lacquer coated, mainly because the round is slightly tapered.
Can't say that about the poly coated .223/5.56x45 which is a straight sided round. I have had several instances where after firing a number of rounds through both my SAR-3 and Norinco 84S that the poly coating started heating up to the point that it softened and worked like a glue to fully lock up in the breach. With both rifles after firing just over one mag, I would have one spent round lock up solid in the barrel and have to be driven out with the cleaning rod. I had a friend catch the rounds and he was able to see the coating getting progressively softer until it actually was smearing just before one glued itself into the rifle.
This is less likely to occur with the 7.62x39 round since it is a tapered case so less likely to glue itself into the barrel.
As much as there were complaints about the lacquer coating turning to dust in the receiver, I never had one cause a failure of the rifle to continue to fire.
Can't say that about the poly coated .223/5.56x45 which is a straight sided round. I have had several instances where after firing a number of rounds through both my SAR-3 and Norinco 84S that the poly coating started heating up to the point that it softened and worked like a glue to fully lock up in the breach. With both rifles after firing just over one mag, I would have one spent round lock up solid in the barrel and have to be driven out with the cleaning rod. I had a friend catch the rounds and he was able to see the coating getting progressively softer until it actually was smearing just before one glued itself into the rifle.
This is less likely to occur with the 7.62x39 round since it is a tapered case so less likely to glue itself into the barrel.
As much as there were complaints about the lacquer coating turning to dust in the receiver, I never had one cause a failure of the rifle to continue to fire.
Thanks! I pretty much limited it to Wolf/Brown Bear stuff. If you guys really care, I could do more if we start talking about U.S. or other Russian/Eastern European stuff or even 5.45x39.
I'd agree with The Dude, Golden Tiger tends to be some pretty great stuff and is often the most accurate Russian brand.
Also like Indykid said, polymer vs. lacquer doesn't really matter in 7.62x39 and I think part of the reason polymer was added to more of the Wolf is due to the bad rep .223 lacquered got in ARs (but then I could be wrong, it might have just been happening at the same time) I prefer lacquer since it prevents surface rust better but actually most of my ammo is polymer coated. The most ammo I have laying around is the polymer coated WMC 124gr 8M3 HP, I feel it is the best bang for the buck option since it is cheap for plinking but still has good terminal performance.
Never experienced a difference between the poly and laquered AK rounds in 7.62X39 but I have seen laquered AR .223 stick in the chamber after running several mags rapid fire. The laquer seems to build uo in the chamber over time. Good shooting.
Forgot to reply to this, all the Bear stuff is made at the Barnaul plant. The differences between them is how the the steel cases are plated, Brown is lacquered, Silver is Zinc, and Golden is brass plating. They will all be about the same quality of bullets, which is generally good with Barnaul and is lead cored with bi-metal jackets. The coatings would the difference and go with what what you prefer or just by what load is available in what line.
Yeah,true for ARs but not for AKs. Granted, I haven't tried lacquer .223/5.56 in an AK but lacquer 5.45x39 runs fine in AKs. Do you know how it runs in AR 5.45x39 uppers (haven't ever paid that much attention to them)? All of the surplus Russian/Bulgarian cheap stuff is lacquered.
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Excellent info (and true) matt. If you're just plinking, the cheapest non corrosive is the way to go as they all work great. I'll also give a +1 for golden tiger, it seems to be less dirty than wolf or brown bear and you can get it at sgammo.com for less money than the others. Wolf is currently on sale at aimsurplus for 190 for 1000. If you're looking for a good performance round, hornady makes the 7.62x39 vmax that is devastating when it hits it's target. Get some good mags (bulgarian circle 10 waffles are excellent) and go have fun
Well, since we're here I'll throw in the rest of my 7.62x39 terminal ballistics stuff.
As I mentioned before, the U.S. Winchester White Box/Federal/American Eagle/Fiocchi etc., 123gr FMJs are reloadable brass and will have better terminal performance similar to Yugo M67 which tumbles sooner than M43 based stuff (like Chinese steel core). Dr. Fackler determined that M43 tends to make a .30 hole through and through in many cases and isn't a good terminal performer. Modern FMJ will tumble better, but still not of good option as expanding ammo though IMO.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e9/RussianWP.jpg
Hornady V-Max and Winchester Soft Points are good bang for the buck U.S. made options. Of course they aren't going to be as cheap as the Eastern European stuff.
Hornady uses Russian steel cases but U.S. powder, primers and bullets. A box of 50 runs about $30-$40 (I'm waiting on their 5.45x39 V-Max load which should be out this summer!). Overall the Hornady loading is a little light though, under the 2350 FPS they list. As Vitamink says, it is impressive terminal performance: Hornady : Law Enforcement | Products | 7.62x39 - 7.62x39 123 gr. V-MAX™
D&S Manufacturing 123gr Hornady V-Max
A lot of early fragmentation still with decent penetration of the core of the bullet. I'm not sure if I would use it as a hunting round of something I planned to eat like deer and hog due to all the fragments, but it would make an excellent 4 for 2 legged varmint round.
The Winchester loading is just a good typical soft point bullet on brass cases if you are into reloading. Kinda boring compared to some other stuff we're talking about but reliable stuff. Good hunting or self defense at relatively decent price for U.S. ammo. They are normally $20 for a box of 20.
Note terminal ballistics expert Dr. Roberts has had bad experiences with Federal 7.62x39 soft points not reliably expanding and they are .308 not .310/.311 diameter so I stay away from them. However they did expand in this test at Brassfetcher:
Federal Classic Hi-Shok 123gr softpoint
Remington makes a soft point in 7.62x39 but I haven't heard many reports on it so I can't really tell you more there.
Corbon, if you can afford it, is probably the best overall ammo. Their all copper DPX load expands and penetrates reliably and is an amazing performer. The 108gr MPG load makes a good urban load since it basically uses a version of Barnes' Varmint Grenade. They also have a 150gr soft point and a 125gr hollowpoint, the 150gr having my attention for hunting. Corbon as loads the Glaser rounds which may or may not be your cup of tea, I think the MPG load is a better option if you are looking for lower barrier penetration but yet better target penetration. All the Corbon loads run $42-$52 per 20 and Glaser $25 per 6
One other Wolf load we haven't talked about yet is the 154gr. soft point loading that a lot of people tend to like. I'm not 100% sold on the 154gr.'s trajectory out of a 16" AK barrel and the bullets tend to shed jackets when expanding. Depending on your preferences, it could make a good short range hunting round.
Wolf 154gr Soft Point
As Vitmank, says Bulgarian Circle 10 Waffle mags are the standard by which all other AK 7.62x39 mags should be judged. I'm a fan of the new AK30 mags by US Palm, but not everybody is since their steel lining doesn't extend into the feedlips (with a couple of people reporting feedlip failures) and the floorplate isn't removable. I still think they are a great option, and in my opinion the only one if you are trying to use mags for 922r compliance. But that's a whole other thread!
As I mentioned before, the U.S. Winchester White Box/Federal/American Eagle/Fiocchi etc., 123gr FMJs are reloadable brass and will have better terminal performance similar to Yugo M67 which tumbles sooner than M43 based stuff (like Chinese steel core). Dr. Fackler determined that M43 tends to make a .30 hole through and through in many cases and isn't a good terminal performer. Modern FMJ will tumble better, but still not of good option as expanding ammo though IMO.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e9/RussianWP.jpg
Hornady V-Max and Winchester Soft Points are good bang for the buck U.S. made options. Of course they aren't going to be as cheap as the Eastern European stuff.
Hornady uses Russian steel cases but U.S. powder, primers and bullets. A box of 50 runs about $30-$40 (I'm waiting on their 5.45x39 V-Max load which should be out this summer!). Overall the Hornady loading is a little light though, under the 2350 FPS they list. As Vitamink says, it is impressive terminal performance: Hornady : Law Enforcement | Products | 7.62x39 - 7.62x39 123 gr. V-MAX™
D&S Manufacturing 123gr Hornady V-Max
A lot of early fragmentation still with decent penetration of the core of the bullet. I'm not sure if I would use it as a hunting round of something I planned to eat like deer and hog due to all the fragments, but it would make an excellent 4 for 2 legged varmint round.
The Winchester loading is just a good typical soft point bullet on brass cases if you are into reloading. Kinda boring compared to some other stuff we're talking about but reliable stuff. Good hunting or self defense at relatively decent price for U.S. ammo. They are normally $20 for a box of 20.
Note terminal ballistics expert Dr. Roberts has had bad experiences with Federal 7.62x39 soft points not reliably expanding and they are .308 not .310/.311 diameter so I stay away from them. However they did expand in this test at Brassfetcher:
Federal Classic Hi-Shok 123gr softpoint
Remington makes a soft point in 7.62x39 but I haven't heard many reports on it so I can't really tell you more there.
Corbon, if you can afford it, is probably the best overall ammo. Their all copper DPX load expands and penetrates reliably and is an amazing performer. The 108gr MPG load makes a good urban load since it basically uses a version of Barnes' Varmint Grenade. They also have a 150gr soft point and a 125gr hollowpoint, the 150gr having my attention for hunting. Corbon as loads the Glaser rounds which may or may not be your cup of tea, I think the MPG load is a better option if you are looking for lower barrier penetration but yet better target penetration. All the Corbon loads run $42-$52 per 20 and Glaser $25 per 6
One other Wolf load we haven't talked about yet is the 154gr. soft point loading that a lot of people tend to like. I'm not 100% sold on the 154gr.'s trajectory out of a 16" AK barrel and the bullets tend to shed jackets when expanding. Depending on your preferences, it could make a good short range hunting round.
Wolf 154gr Soft Point
As Vitmank, says Bulgarian Circle 10 Waffle mags are the standard by which all other AK 7.62x39 mags should be judged. I'm a fan of the new AK30 mags by US Palm, but not everybody is since their steel lining doesn't extend into the feedlips (with a couple of people reporting feedlip failures) and the floorplate isn't removable. I still think they are a great option, and in my opinion the only one if you are trying to use mags for 922r compliance. But that's a whole other thread!
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