A very dissatisfied Winchester customer (and a valuable lesson learned)

[msr]

I had a bit of a scare today that left me very unhappy with a recent decision I made to forsake my normal carry ammo (Federal Hydra-shoks) and go with a make/model I've never used before. I had been researching all different kinds of PP ammo for my new 9mm EDC gun, and I decided to go with the Winchester PDX-1 124gr +P ammo. I trustingly loaded up my mags with it and have been carrying it for the last few weeks completely ignorant of something that could have put me in a terrible situation if I would have had to use my pistol in self defense. This evening as I was settling in after a long day at work, I decided to cycle a few rounds through the pistol just to see if there would be any surface level issues (feeding, extracting, etc) and lo and behold the first round I tried to chamber locked the slide up and rendered the gun inoperable.

I couldn't pull the slide back and eject the round, nor could I get the round to seat into the chamber correctly by jiggling the slide. After carefully disassembling the pistol (which was incredibly difficult due to the cartridge being stuck cock-eyed in the chamber and holding onto the extractor) I pulled the cartridge out and frustratingly emptied all of my mags with the PDX-1's in them. After examining each round and dropping each one into the stripped down barrel, I discovered that TWO out of the twenty rounds purchased had bullets that were improperly tapered and thus would get stuck in the chamber.

Needless to say I'll be giving Winchester a call and expressing (in the nicest of ways of course ) that this is unacceptable. One round in twenty, okay, maybe I just got a bad box. But two rounds in twenty is no coincidence in my book.

So I've leaned a couple of lessons from this:

1- Never trust any ammo without verifying its integrity by spending time with it on the range (and from now on I'll be examining every PP bullet that I load into a mag)

2- It's time to stop thinking about it and start carrying a backup.

Thankfully I had this experience in the comfort and safety of my own home, otherwise I could have ended up a statistic, and I don't think a perp trying to mug me would have the decency to let me field strip my weapon, diagnose the problem, and fix it before things got ugly.

 

[sloughfoot]

I was issued a 50 round box of ammo by a Police Department. One round in that bax had a reversed primer. I have nothing against that manufacturer. It taught me to inspect each round of SD ammo that goes into any of my handguns.

When they are making millions of rounds in a year, stuff can happen and a bad round can get through QC. Nothing is perfect.

Not to minimize your experience. I would be upset if I was you.....

 

[Goodcat]

I had 1 squib load wwb and 1 bullet in a box of 100 9mm, separate occasions. I do mean bullet, loose, in the box of ammo. No empty case or gun powder though!

 

[Disposable Heart]

As said earlier, PRIME example why to check and double check anything you carry. Looks like they didn't swage that bullet correctly.

Sounds weird, but this is why I like to load my carry stuff.
I am the QC. With a single stage, it takes me 1 hour to load 20 rounds. But every round is checked, every bullet weighed and measured for consistency, every powder charge weighed AND examined, all NEW cases examined, weighed and grouped for consistency and all primers checked for fulminate and weighed. I have had a round or two of "carry" ammo fail, but have yet to see any failures with my specific for carry handloads (not to mention, nothing over a 10 FPS deviation over 1300 FPS with 9mm). The humidity is monitored at all times and for every 50 made, 30 are fired, 20 are cleared to carry. If there is one failure in that lot, whether it was the gun or not, the entire lot is rejected.

Not to mention, with some powder combinations, such as Vihtavouri 3n37 or 3n38, I can get higher velocity, lower flash and more consistency (not to mention cleaner) than factory. Imagine, if you will, a 147gr 9mm JHP going 1100 FPS at standard pressure in a 4" barrel with minimal flash at night, plus costs only 10 bucks a box of 20 to make with all virgin brass and components?

 

[Broom_jm]

As said earlier, PRIME example why to check and double check anything you carry. Looks like they didn't swage that bullet correctly.

Sounds weird, but this is why I like to load my carry stuff.
I am the QC. With a single stage, it takes me 1 hour to load 20 rounds. But every round is checked, every bullet weighed and measured for consistency, every powder charge weighed AND examined, all NEW cases examined, weighed and grouped for consistency and all primers checked for fulminate and weighed. I have had a round or two of "carry" ammo fail, but have yet to see any failures with my specific for carry handloads (not to mention, nothing over a 10 FPS deviation over 1300 FPS with 9mm). The humidity is monitored at all times and for every 50 made, 30 are fired, 20 are cleared to carry. If there is one failure in that lot, whether it was the gun or not, the entire lot is rejected.

Not to mention, with some powder combinations, such as Vihtavouri 3n37 or 3n38, I can get higher velocity, lower flash and more consistency (not to mention cleaner) than factory. Imagine, if you will, a 147gr 9mm JHP going 1100 FPS at standard pressure in a 4" barrel with minimal flash at night, plus costs only 10 bucks a box of 20 to make with all virgin brass and components?

This thread highlights a fundamental flaw in the way some folks look at their carry ammo. For some reason the OP was carrying a PD gun with ammo that he had not tested in his gun. His conclusion is to carry a backup gun, when the obvious solution is to shoot what you carry...a LOT!

What isn't mentioned is how this ammo groups from his gun. He clearly hasn't shot it, so what if it doesn't shoot to POA? How would he know?

By loading your own carry ammo, the cost of it is affordable, so you shoot it a whole lot more than you would if it was very expensive. Far too many people shoot WWB ammo at the range and then stuff their mag full of Critical Defense or this PDX ammo, without getting familiar with it. I shoot what I load and load what I shoot...in ALL my guns. If there is ever a problem with my ammo, I'll know who to call.

 

[Disposable Heart]

Far too many people shoot WWB ammo at the range and then stuff their mag full of Critical Defense or this PDX ammo, without getting familiar with it.

Working at a range, I see this all too often. Up there with folks that shoot .38s, then stuff the pistol full of rock 'em sock 'em .357s on their way out...

One of our ROs carries WWB JHP 9mm stuff. Plus side is, he shoots WWB FMJ 9mm. This would probably be one of the exceptions to the above (plus he has shot a bit of the JHP variant). Talk about total compatibility!

 

[KG1]

I had a bit of a scare today that left me very unhappy with a recent decision I made to forsake my normal carry ammo (Federal Hydra-shoks) and go with a make/model I've never used before. I had been researching all different kinds of PP ammo for my new 9mm EDC gun, and I decided to go with the Winchester PDX-1 124gr +P ammo. I trustingly loaded up my mags with it and have been carrying it for the last few weeks completely ignorant of something that could have put me in a terrible situation if I would have had to use my pistol in self defense. This evening as I was settling in after a long day at work, I decided to cycle a few rounds through the pistol just to see if there would be any surface level issues (feeding, extracting, etc) and lo and behold the first round I tried to chamber locked the slide up and rendered the gun inoperable.

I couldn't pull the slide back and eject the round, nor could I get the round to seat into the chamber correctly by jiggling the slide. After carefully disassembling the pistol (which was incredibly difficult due to the cartridge being stuck cock-eyed in the chamber and holding onto the extractor) I pulled the cartridge out and frustratingly emptied all of my mags with the PDX-1's in them. After examining each round and dropping each one into the stripped down barrel, I discovered that TWO out of the twenty rounds purchased had bullets that were improperly tapered and thus would get stuck in the chamber.

Needless to say I'll be giving Winchester a call and expressing (in the nicest of ways of course ) that this is unacceptable. One round in twenty, okay, maybe I just got a bad box. But two rounds in twenty is no coincidence in my book.

So I've leaned a couple of lessons from this:

1- Never trust any ammo without verifying its integrity by spending time with it on the range (and from now on I'll be examining every PP bullet that I load into a mag)

2- It's time to stop thinking about it and start carrying a backup.

Thankfully I had this experience in the comfort and safety of my own home, otherwise I could have ended up a statistic, and I don't think a perp trying to mug me would have the decency to let me field strip my weapon, diagnose the problem, and fix it before things got ugly.

At the risk of sounding like "That Guy" I think the appropriate time and place to be testing out the function and reliability of any live round and especially your carry ammunition should be conducted at the range.

In addition I would'nt switch my carry ammunition and trust it without extensive testing either.

 

[Robert Richardson]

As said earlier, PRIME example why to check and double check anything you carry. Looks like they didn't swage that bullet correctly.

Sounds weird, but this is why I like to load my carry stuff.
I am the QC. With a single stage, it takes me 1 hour to load 20 rounds. But every round is checked, every bullet weighed and measured for consistency, every powder charge weighed AND examined, all NEW cases examined, weighed and grouped for consistency and all primers checked for fulminate and weighed. I have had a round or two of "carry" ammo fail, but have yet to see any failures with my specific for carry handloads (not to mention, nothing over a 10 FPS deviation over 1300 FPS with 9mm). The humidity is monitored at all times and for every 50 made, 30 are fired, 20 are cleared to carry. If there is one failure in that lot, whether it was the gun or not, the entire lot is rejected.

Not to mention, with some powder combinations, such as Vihtavouri 3n37 or 3n38, I can get higher velocity, lower flash and more consistency (not to mention cleaner) than factory. Imagine, if you will, a 147gr 9mm JHP going 1100 FPS at standard pressure in a 4" barrel with minimal flash at night, plus costs only 10 bucks a box of 20 to make with all virgin brass and components?

This is why I load what I carry.Found too many BAD factory rounds.

 

[XtremeVel]

.

Looks like they might of got a few .355 dia bullets mixed up in the wrong bin.

The difference between the two is very close to the difference I see in the Speer Gold Dot line with their 124gr bullet intended for use in the 9mm and their 125gr bullet intended for use in the .357 sig.

With the short neck of the .357, the bullet on the right probably woundn't work due to the profile not matching up with the neck. The one on the left would be fine !

 

[looney2ns]

It's been my experience that Winchester ammo should be absolutely ashamed of themselves for putting out the crap they do. I simply won't shoot anything WWB, its very near pure junk. Filthy dirty, velocties all over the place, and apparently no QC checks.

 

[indykid]

Usually I don't like to enter a thread and then jump on the company being flamed, but I too had a strange issue with Winchester this past weekend. Out of a box of the 100 round 9mm 115 Gr. value pack, I had a nice mix of rounds marked "WIN 9MM LUGER" and "WCC" date stamp "11" and the NATO mark.

What's up with Winchester lately???

 

[Disposable Heart]

It's been my experience that Winchester ammo should be absolutely ashamed of themselves for putting out the crap they do. I simply won't shoot anything WWB, its very near pure junk. Filthy dirty, velocties all over the place, and apparently no QC checks.

While I will say that with most "bulk" 9mm, Winchester is spot on with your description. Heck, their .45 is the most filthiest stuff on the planet here recently. Fire 100 rounds and your muzzle looks like it was spray painted light gray and it's a ***** to remove off stainless.

Tula/Wolf, I am not kidding, was more uniform in bullet weight/diameter/OAL than WWB in 9mm form. I know this as I pulled bullets from both from recently purchased (4 months ago) ammo. Heck, overall, the Wolf was on par with powder uniformity. As a person who sells products that are American made, Winchester really ruins that label for us...

On the otherhand, with nitwits buying ammo like retards b/c they think it will be banned and are clearing shelves of ammo that they don't have a gun for, demand is going to damage QC, pure and simple.

 

[45fan]

I have yet to run into any issues like this in any of my carry ammo. When I first started to carry myself, I came across an article written by an officer who had, in his many years on the job, ran into just about every QC shortcoming you could imagine. Moral of his story, check EVERY round you are loading as you open the box, then empty the box for a good side by side comparison, then again individually as you load the magazine/speed loader.
Shoot enough of the selected round that you are also comfortable with its function in your weapon. Even then its possible to run into issues, but its eliminates as much as is possible without loading your own.

As for loading your own, I do not, but I am not against those who do. If I were to load my own, I would likely go through similar precautions as outlined by Disposable Heart, doing everything I can to ensure the most reliable, accurate ammunition I can manage.

 

[U.S. Patriot]

I would never carry any round without first running a box to make sure it functions properly. I also check every round before it gets loaded into a mag. Most everything can be cought by giving it a good once over.

 

[Bobby]

Disposable Heart's and Broom_jm's statements are exactly why I am looking to get into reloading. No problems yet but I like the idea of saving money on plinking rounds and shooting plenty of SD rounds to determine reliability. The only way to do that cheaply is to reload!

 

[Hookeye]

I still like the old WW SXT .45 acp stuff.
Not sure about the bulk junk or newer ammo.
Gunshow this weekend, try to find old boxes of ammo

 

[KG1]

I would never carry any round without first running a box to make sure it functions properly. I also check every round before it gets loaded into a mag. Most everything can be cought by giving it a good once over.

With any SD ammunition I usually run about 200 rds. to check for function and accuracy and if they run to my satisfaction I will feel comfortable carrying them and I do the same as far as checking every single round that I load in my carry magazines.

It doesn't take long to do it and at least I know that I don't have an oddball round that could be disastrous if it came down to a self defense situation.

I also practice with the cheaper RN stuff and use the same bullet grain as my carry ammo and I try to finish up every other range session with a magazine full of my carry stuff since it's more expensive.

 

[parsimonious]

Wow, the pdx1 was my preferred defense ammo for a while, and kinda still is.

Now I have to double check to make sure I'm not loading .359's.

 

[canoeman]

I will start inspecting my ammo before loading in the mag for sure!

 

[Mr Evilwrench]

Don't cheap out on what you carry. Make as sure of it as you can, whether you're loading it yourself, or inspecting them as you put them in the mag. Know what they look like, so you'll know if they look wrong, at the very least. Fire a good few of them to make sure of function, POI, etc. "But they're expensive!" What's a few bucks going to matter when or if the time comes? I'm about to be robbed; keys, car, cash, credit cards. My life? My girl's about to be raped. My kid's about to be scarred for life at the least. I'll be glad I made the investment; that's what it is.