A GOOD SAFE

[LuckyGunner]

There aren't many gun safe manufacturers out there. I believe it's 3. So the brands don't matter very much. The fire protection and thickness of the steel is important.

Good advice to get one that is bigger than you think you need. I doubled the amount of storage and it's already full 2 years later. The more firearms you get somehow the easier it is to add another. Probably since the wife doesn't even notice gun purchases anymore.

__________________
9mm ammunition

 

[BE Mike]

I definitely disagree regarding the alleged problems with digital locks, as long as the digital lock is top quality. If there is a problem, the entire face unit with keypad can be easily replaced. Batteries wearing out frequently is not an issue with my Sargent and Greenleaf and the batteries are common and easily replaced by the owner. The combination can be reset any time, by the owner. Multiple combinations can be set, if someone wants to give someone their own combination, That individual combination can later be removed.The unit has a lifetime warranty. I've owned both for many years and the e-lock is by far the most user friendly and convenient of the two.

 

[Redneckbuckeye]

I have a liberty, its ok.

 

[HogDaddy]

I have a Libery L-35 that holds 36 long guns and has 6 shelves for storage. In door lighting and golden rod. Great safe

 

[Libertarian01]

VWarren (et alia),

I have been looking into purchasing a gun safe for some time. I have pretty well determined which manufacturer I will use, now it is only a matter of model.

There are few ideas I started with:

#1) IF I am going to spend over $1k on something it better darn well do its job! I don't want to fork over good money on something that makes me "feel good." I want it to be good!

#2) While the primary threat to most of us is fire, I wanted something that would deter most criminals - NOT just the "smash & grab" yokels. You can spend $600 on something to stop smash & grabs, but it won't do good if they return prepared and it probably won't do well against fire.

#3) I want something that will hold all of my valuables AND have at least a slight room for holding more in the future. This is not just firearms but valuable documents, jewelry, some investments, etc.

#4) The method of fire protection is important. You need to research just how the safe manufacturer makes a fireproof safe "fireproof."

#5) What is the temperature you need to defend against? I quizzed a local fireman. Two (2) hours later (he is also a shooter) I learned that the average house fire will burn at 1200 degrees. It can get damn hot really fast! This presumes no major collection of thermite grenades or other flammables is nearby. So make certain that however the test was done it was cranked up pretty quick to at least that temp. He also said in an urban setting where the FD could respond quickly an hours protection would be plenty. The more in the stix you live - the more time protection you need.

#6) It should be heavy! Simple. If you have a 400 pound safe w/ 100 pounds of guns, you have given Mr. Thief a 500 pound shopping bag for him & his buddies to take and open at their leisure.

#7) It darn well better be tested by someone BESIDES the safe manufacturer. I like Underwriters Laboratories - A LOT! Here is a link to their listing of "residential security units." This is the lowest level of protective rating they give a guns safe. Their ratings are, from low to high:

#1) Residential Security Unit;
#2) TL - 15;
#3) TL - 30.

TQDE.GuideInfo - Residential Security Containers

I will be purchasing a RSC. I cannot afford higher unfortunately. Click the "view listings" on the above link to see all of the safe manufacturers who hold this list. You can then follow the link below for TL - 15.

TQMZ.GuideInfo - Tool-resistant Safes, Class TL-15

#8) the wall thickness of steel should be 1/4" MINIMUM! This 12 Gauge stuff can be easily defeated by determined criminals. Looks great to you and me who won't throw the thing down and go to it without a care in the world, but to a thief it can be easy guns.

#9) If someone knows you have some valuable guns and they show up with a cutting torch - you will loose. Given a sadly short period of time your guns will become a statistic and not items of ownership. So it is extremely important to back up whatever safe you buy with a security system!!!!!! Even if it is cheap and just makes gobs of noise it will probably scare away the most prepared thieves so that the don't have the time to break in.

---

When I was doing research I found several that were good. I think one (1) of the overall best safe manufacturer is Brown (not "Browning"). These safes seem to have consistently thick steel and are very heavy. They are also way out of my price range so you will have to dig further.

I came down to a choice between American Security and Liberty. When I sent an email to each one questioning their fire testing method American Security responded the next business day. Liberty has not responded at all. Guess who has my vote for customer service...?

American Security is also the only gun safe manufacturer on the market that makes a TL-30 gun safe. The TL ratings basically mean that it took UL engineers at least 15 or 30 minutes to get into the safe. Sadly, this means that every safe tested that is below TL15 was breached in less than 15 minutes. Goes to show you how "feeling safe" and "being safe" can be wwaayyyyy different.

Here are just a few thoughts on using a safe that I came across in my research:

A) A metal container w/ anything that could go BOOM in a fire is called a "Bomb" boys and girls! This means that ammo in safe = bad idea.

B) The fireproof safes keep the internal temp at <=350 degrees. Thus not reaching the combustible temp where paper burns at Fahrenheit 451. Still, if you do store valuable documents do NOT put them in anything plastic like a plastic binder. It won't do you any good to have valuable documents you cannot read because something melted onto them.

C) Electronic media will not survive at these temperatures. You will need something else to protect such materials if you need to. Liberty does make some sort of "electronic media protector" box that is about $400 if I recall correctly. It keeps the temp inside the box at <=120 degrees, so most of your electronic media should survive that.

D) In the event of a fire the temperature at the top of the safe will be higher than at the bottom. This is due to several factors I researched, the most common being sheet rock used that will crumble and fall under extreme heat. You want to keep really important stuff at the bottom of the safe.

E) In a fire the safe can fall through the floor and break open. This then defeats the purpose of spending loads of money. So try to keep the safe in the lowest level of the home. Also anything heavy that falls onto the safe could have the same effect in extreme heat, so try to locate the safe in a corner where a major structure will be less likely to break it open.

I hope this helps in finding something right for you. Good luck!

Regards,

Doug

PS - Fonts for me, size for E5Ranger375

 

[CountryBoy19]

There aren't many gun safe manufacturers out there. I believe it's 3. So the brands don't matter very much. The fire protection and thickness of the steel is important.

Good advice to get one that is bigger than you think you need. I doubled the amount of storage and it's already full 2 years later. The more firearms you get somehow the easier it is to add another. Probably since the wife doesn't even notice gun purchases anymore.



9mm ammunition

Are you talking about true safe manufacturers or "gun safe manufacturers" that make RSCs?

If it's the former, I don't think any of the manufactures that make true TL rated safes make any that are specifically "gun safes". If it's the latter, then you're dead wrong, I can count at least 8 different manufacturers right off the top of my head making RSCs. So yes, brands do matter, A LOT.

I definitely disagree regarding the alleged problems with digital locks, as long as the digital lock is top quality. If there is a problem, the entire face unit with keypad can be easily replaced. Batteries wearing out frequently is not an issue with my Sargent and Greenleaf and the batteries are common and easily replaced by the owner. The combination can be reset any time, by the owner. Multiple combinations can be set, if someone wants to give someone their own combination, That individual combination can later be removed.The unit has a lifetime warranty. I've owned both for many years and the e-lock is by far the most user friendly and convenient of the two.

It's not the batteries, or the face at all that are the major concerns, as said before, it's the mechanism. Every single electronic lock out there uses plastic parts and a cheap little electric motor or solenoid to retract the locking pin mechanism. Plastic wears out, electronics fail. What happens when the solenoid fails on your electronic lock? That is internal and it can't be replaced without opening the safe, but you can't open it because it failed. This means your safe is getting drilled. Same thing goes for when the plastic parts fail, your safe is getting drilled.

Take a look at most safe manufacturers warranties, most of them that carry some type of warranty specifically exclude failure of the electronic mechanism from their warranty. That means if your electronic lock fails, you're SOL. How long have you have your E-lock? I know people that have mechanical locks that have been opened every day for 5 decades. I don't know of any E-locks with that level of use that are older than 10 years old and still going strong.




Also, regarding insulation, don't get a safe with sheet-rock/gypsum insulation. There are chemicals used in sheet-rock/gypsum that promote rusting. Ever look at uncoated nails/dry-wall screws that have been in sheet-rock for a few years? They're nothing but rust. My house is 5 years old, when hanging sheet-rock they alternated between nails and coated drywall screws. I have nail pops all over the place because the nails are rusting away, the coated drywall screws aren't. Do you really want to introduce your firearms to the rust promoting chemicals that are off-gassed in your safe? Get concrete or fiber (ceramic or other types of fiber rated for high temps) insulation, period.

BTW, I suggest you check out Sturdy safes. IMHO, they cannot be beat for "bang for your buck" hands down. They offer true security for the price of an RSC. Most RSCs out there have vulnerabilities that can be taken advantage of. Sturdy has paid attention to ever one of those and made it better.

ETA, Fire Safes : Gun Safes : Sturdy Safe scroll to the bottom and start watching the videos, you will learn a LOT. I like the forklift video best myself. They had the back end of the small forklift off the ground and the back end of the big lift off the ground. That is a HUGE amount of weight pulling up on that door. Pay attention to how much the steel plate bows, that plate is at least 1/2" thick, likely more than that.

 

[BE Mike]

I sold safes for 4 years. That doesn't make me an expert, but I was familiar with customer problems. There were not a lot of complaints about e-locks. I've owned my safe with the e-lock for 5 years. My Ft. Knox has a lifetime warranty on everything, including the S&G e-lock. E-locks haven't been around as long as tumbler locks, but that doesn't mean that there is something wrong with them. I've had my safe with a dial for over twice that long, but I'll take the e-lock over the dial any day. Glocks are made of plastic. I heard all of the "plastic gun" banter before they were accepted. There is a lot of plastic and aluminum on cars nowadays, too.[/I]

 

[theweakerbrother]

Shop Liberty 18.6 Cu. Ft. Executive Fatboy Jr. 48 Gun Safe at Lowes.com

 

[Libertarian01]

CountryBoy19,

In my post I listed a link to Underwriters Laboratories directly that shows all of the manufacturers who make TL-15 safes. There are two (2) pages of them.

The only manufacturer of a TL-30 gun safe is American Security. You can find this by going to ULs website directly.

Regards,

Doug

 

[longbarrel]

Johnson Safe Company

#1 Built in house, "in Indiana"
#2 Made of all American parts. (Like it or not, good for the economy)
#3 2300 degree fire rating for one hour. (Better than any commercial gun safe on the market)
#4 Will custom build any size you need/want (Including paint, control, etc.)
#5 Lined with ceramic so no need for humidity control (All of your commercial gun safes are lined with drywall)
#6 INGO site supporter (
#7 Price (for what you get, you can't beat it)

 

[BE Mike]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9buR30A_0lk]YouTube - Fort Knox Gun Safes Torture Test[/ame]
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YshDFtJ6sQ&feature=related]YouTube - Army Tank Can't Crush Gun Safe[/ame]
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4VaPwKpXfI]YouTube - Fort Knox Safes Locking Mechanisms - Safes R Us[/ame]

 

[CountryBoy19]

I sold safes for 4 years. That doesn't make me an expert, but I was familiar with customer problems. There were not a lot of complaints about e-locks. I've owned my safe with the e-lock for 5 years. My Ft. Knox has a lifetime warranty on everything, including the S&G e-lock. E-locks haven't been around as long as tumbler locks, but that doesn't mean that there is something wrong with them. I've had my safe with a dial for over twice that long, but I'll take the e-lock over the dial any day. Glocks are made of plastic. I heard all of the "plastic gun" banter before they were accepted. There is a lot of plastic and aluminum on cars nowadays, too.

"The responsibility of Fort Knox Security Products under this warranty is limited to replacement or repair of defective part at the Fort Knox Security Products, Orem, Utah factory, or at a point designated by them, with expense for transportation, if necessary, to be borne by the original purchaser. In no event shall Fort Knox Security Products liability exceed the original cost of the product. -"

Seems to me that if your E-lock failed they would replace the lock. They aren't going to pay the gunsmith to drill your safe so you can get your guns out. Your only other option is to send the safe to them, you still have to pay freight both ways, and insure the $20k worth of guns inside of so they're not lost/stolen while in transit both ways.

And that is exactly what I'm getting at. The dial locks have a failure rate that is at least an entire order of magnitude lower than that of the E-lock so why take the risk? When an E-lock fails, it's done, over with, there is no manipulation. When a dial lock fails (combo slip/sticks etc) there is still a very good chance of manipulating it without having to drill the safe.

BTW, I'm not a fan of the Ft Know videos, the first one shows us that the safe was fire resistant, that's it. All the other stuff demonstrated there is "duh, of course" stuff. The second video demonstrates that a heavy steel box will support 23 psi, well duh, of course it will. The third video shows that the Ft Know has re-lockers, most of the high end RSC and true safes have re-lockers, nothing new there. I mean, come on, who is going to attempt to break into a safe by picking up and dropping it with a crane, driving over it with a tank, or shooting it? When I see a safe "testing" video I want to see a real test, not just all the drama stuff. Show me a pry attach, or a manipulation attack. Terry at Sturdy does just that, he shows you the most common attack methods on his products and he even cheats in favor of the attacker in most cases. The reason his products aren't UL tested is because it ultimately saves the consumer tons of money. UL testing and listing costs hundreds of thousands of dollars for the manufacturer, that is a cost that would ultimately be passed on to the consumer. Terry just decided to skip that step and demonstrate how rugged his safes are on his own, with real attack methods.


Guess it's my turn for the videos
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CboBAf597uU"]YouTube - Sturdy Fire Safe In An Accidental House Burn Down[/ame]
one of my favorites
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9FslzOGzqw"]YouTube - 10000lb. Forklift Pull Test On Sturdy Gun Safe Door Video[/ame]
another one of my favorites
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4oOqDHedivQ"]YouTube - Pry Bar Test On a Sturdy Gun Safe With Deadbolts Removed![/ame]
This is a huge vulnerability to most safes on the market
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5TjMJ4OTJA"]YouTube - Sturdy Gun Safe 9lb. Sledge Hammer Deadbolt Test Video[/ame]
Supported deadbolts are critical. Most RSCs on the market don't have supported deadbolts
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87jK6Da7NM8"]YouTube - How To Test A Gun Safe For Good Linkage and Why Supported Dead Bolts Are Best. Video[/ame]
Why stainless is important if torch attacks concern you
YouTube - sturdysafe1's Channel
Extremely tough locking mechanism...
YouTube - sturdysafe1's Channel


ETA, I am not at all trying to say that Fort Knox safes aren't good, just pointing out that those video don't really tell us much about them. And that E-locks, no matter what safe they're on are inferior.

 

[Jeremy05]

Nice videos...I'm impressed with the tank driving over the safe.

 

[BE Mike]

CountryBoy19,

There are a lot of good safes on the market. Ft. Knox is just one good brand. You have made some assumptions about Ft. Knox service. You would be wrong in your assumptions.

High quality e-locks are just fine, just ask around. I don't have anything against someone wanting a dial lock, if that is what they want, but the e-locks are easier and quicker to access and much more versatile, as to combinations, etc. Anyone who does a little search on the internet will find a lot of satisfied customers with e-locks. I asked a lot of safe owners before I decided to get one with an e-lock. I didn't have one complaint.

The videos are just for some info and fun. They aren't there to have someone approve them.

Sturdy Gun Safes...never heard of them.

I don't have any dog in this hunt. I'm just a satisfied customer.

 

[CountryBoy19]

Sturdy Gun Safes...never heard of them.

Do a search on them.... number 1 recommend gun safe on arfcom and other forums by a long-shot, simply because they offer a safe that would easily pass the TL-15, and possibly TL-30 rating, but it's at the price of a higher end RSC.

I encourage everybody to at least give them a look, most, if not all, will like what they see.

 

[Libertarian01]

To All,

Kudos to the entertainment value of the videos. They rival Beavis & Butthead in both fun watching and educational value.

It is not unreasonable to think that these videos prove something when in reality they do not prove anything regarding the true value of a gun safe. This is why in any purchase, not just a gun safe, you should get an unbiased professional opinion/evaluation regarding the product. So enters Underwriters Laboratories. They have been testing safes for over 80 years and they don't care whether a gun safe passes inspection or not. I would think that most UL Engineers would like to see every safe they test pass, but in the end their job is to render a professional opinion that all of us in the public can depend on for accuracy.

One video shows the safe being dropped from a great height and then burned. Whoopee darn doo... What temperature was the fire at? The video does not say. How long was it burned at this unknown temperature? Again, the video does not say. What temperature was achieved inside the safe? Your guess is as good as Dick Cheney's. They did not test that.

I believe a lot of these manufacturers are unwilling to allow UL to test their safe because either they know it will not pass OR they are afraid that it will not pass. Or maybe it is just hubris that they don't want anyone telling them they don't make a good product when they honestly believe they do.

I don't believe the notion that by having UL test the safe this will significantly cost consumers more. Please... First the only cost to the manufacturer is the variable cost of the product, S&H and whatever fee UL charges. Even with all of that the manufacturer gets to write off 100% of that as a business expense and save money on taxes.

The importance of having UL do the test is that they are controlled, consistent, and unbiased.

For example, when UL does the drop test here some of the parameters:

#1) We know that the safe has been heated to 2,000 degrees Fahrenheit;
#2) We know the safe has been dropped 30'.
#3) We know the safe was dropped onto a pile of bricks.
#4) We know the temperature inside the safe NEVER went above 300 degrees Fahrenheit.
#5) We know the safe did not pop open.

Certainly safes that have not been tested will average a lower price than those that have been tested. This significant increase in cost for those with the ratings is NOT due to the cost of the testing, but rather the higher quality and consistency of materials and manufacturing processes.

Unless a product has been subjected to the rigorous testing of UL we as consumers cannot be guaranteed that it will do the job it is intended to do.

The Terry guy seems nice enough, but those tests are a joke! Why don't we tell those two (2) chaps w/ the crowbars that they will receive a $10,000 bonus if they open that bad boy within five (5) minutes or less and I do believe we will see a greater effort on their part!

All of the videos that have been presented by a company are propaganda that has one goal in mind: convince us to buy their product! This is completely self serving and should not be swallowed by us as consumers at all!

If you think I push UL a bit hard, I do! I freely admit that when it comes to gun safe quality.

However, I also utilized JD Powers in evaluating my last car purchase.

I use Consumer Reports for most electronics.

We can use AM Best to rate Insurance Companies.

The Better Business Bureau can tell us about local small businesses and whether they resolve complaints or not.

All of these professional, unbiased organizations are excellent tools for us to use in making an intelligent purchase, not just a "snake oil" / "feel good" purchase.

I know for myself the gun safe I am going to purchase will NOT be as good as I want it to be. I cannot afford that level of quality I would like. But at least I am walking through that purchase with my eyes wide open and I am fully aware that I will not be purchasing a product that I believe impregnable (Unless Terry sicks Darryl & Darryl on it).

However, I have confidence that I am buying the best quality that I can afford.

I only wish the same for everyone else.

Regards,

Doug

 

[BE Mike]

Ft. Knox safes are UL rated. The houses burned to the ground. I think that is a pretty good determination of whether or not the safe can withstand a fire. I suppose some people would buy ammo based on how well it does in ballistic gelatin vs. how well it did in an actual shooting situation.

 

[CountryBoy19]

I believe a lot of these manufacturers are unwilling to allow UL to test their safe because either they know it will not pass OR they are afraid that it will not pass. Or maybe it is just hubris that they don't want anyone telling them they don't make a good product when they honestly believe they do.

Some maybe so, others... you believe whatever you want, but for me, I'll go ahead an buy a higher security level product for the same money as you're paying for a low-grade product.

I don't believe the notion that by having UL test the safe this will significantly cost consumers more. Please... First the only cost to the manufacturer is the variable cost of the product, S&H and whatever fee UL charges. Even with all of that the manufacturer gets to write off 100% of that as a business expense and save money on taxes.

That is where you're dead wrong. Do you know what it cost to have UL do a test? It is in the hundreds of thousands of dollars. So for any safe manufacturer to have the test done it's a huge expense. Writing it off on your taxes as a business expense doesn't get the entire amount back. You still have to pass that cost on to the consumer. So lets make a hypothetical here. XYZ safe company sells 500 safes per year. They figure they will make the same model of safe for 5 years. So they will sell 2500 safes that the UL testing costs have to be spread over. At the conservative estimate of $100k, that is $40 per safe. Now, change those values to something more like $200,000 and you're up to $80 each. That increases the cost of your safe, period.

Certainly safes that have not been tested will average a lower price than those that have been tested. This significant increase in cost for those with the ratings is NOT due to the cost of the testing, but rather the higher quality and consistency of materials and manufacturing processes.

That is pure BS and you know it.

Most of the cost on the high-end safes is for the name, and all the frills. Sturdy gives you a no-frills safe that is purely utilitarian. They aren't the most aestetically appealing safe on the block, but they do their intended job. Most of the savings are from saving on UL testing and the savings from not adding all the frills. Look at them, they have a plain handle, plain paint, few decals etc. Take all those things off and you can see where the cost savings come from. I assure you that Sturdy isn't saving money by using inferior materials and methods. If you feel that they are then please tell us how they are falling short on materials and methods.

Unless a product has been subjected to the rigorous testing of UL we as consumers cannot be guaranteed that it will do the job it is intended to do.

You cannot be guaranteed on a UL tested safe either... so what is your point? The only thing you can be sure of is that the particular safe they tested did its job against the attacks they performed on it.

The Terry guy seems nice enough, but those tests are a joke! Why don't we tell those two (2) chaps w/ the crowbars that they will receive a $10,000 bonus if they open that bad boy within five (5) minutes or less and I do believe we will see a greater effort on their part!

Greater effort? Please tell me where they weren't putting forth a great effort? They laid the safe down and they were using every pound of their body weight, what more can you ask for. You also forgot to address the fact that they weakened the safe in the critical areas. They took bolts out to make it more pryable. So lets put those bolts back in, then tell them to put forth a greater effort, they still aren't going to get anywhere. Have you ever seen a Sturdy safe in person? Let me throw this out there for you:

Now, lets take an actual safe that they didn't cut out to make easy to pry, we wouldn't even be having this conversation because you absolutely cannot get a prybar into a Sturdy safe. That is a dime for reference, and that is not manufacturer propaganda, that is from a happy Sturdy owner.

All of the videos that have been presented by a company are propaganda that has one goal in mind: convince us to buy their product! This is completely self serving and should not be swallowed by us as consumers at all!

Propaganda? Not hardly, but of course the videos are done to convince a consumer to buy their product. That's how capitalism works, are you faulting them for producing the videos?

ETA, Terry believes that you shouldn't "need" the word of some expensive testing company that says your product is good. He believes that your product should speak for itself and your marketing should be word of mouth. IMHO, that is working out pretty good for him. He has gone from a small company to a huge safe manufacturer in a matter of years, purely by word of mouth from happy customers.

 

[Libertarian01]

CountryBoy19 (et alia),

I am going to answer some these rebuttals as succinctly and accurately as I can. In any debate such as this it can be difficult to separate fact from opinion. I will try to clarify in my post the difference.

That is where you're dead wrong. Do you know what it cost to have UL do a test? It is in the hundreds of thousands of dollars. So for any safe manufacturer to have the test done it's a huge expense. Writing it off on your taxes as a business expense doesn't get the entire amount back. You still have to pass that cost on to the consumer. So lets make a hypothetical here. XYZ safe company sells 500 safes per year. They figure they will make the same model of safe for 5 years. So they will sell 2500 safes that the UL testing costs have to be spread over. At the conservative estimate of $100k, that is $40 per safe. Now, change those values to something more like $200,000 and you're up to $80 each. That increases the cost of your safe, period.

I can now respond to this question in an informed manner, "Do you know what it costs to have UL do a test?" The answer is, "YES I DO!"

Thanks to your question I have learned something new and will pass it on to board members. This morning I personally called Underwriters Laboratories. Misty answered the phone at extension #4. She was very nice. She directed me to Steve who was more than happy to give me a quote and answer all of my questions.

The cost to have a gunsafe rated as a Residential Security Container is: $6,400. This is $193,600 LESS than your highest number. This averages the cost to ~$915 / year for the seven (7) years of a rating. Not a substantial cost of doing business.

The cost to have a gunsafe rated at TL15 is, are you sitting down? Good. It goes up substantially to a whopping $8,000!!! This is $192,000 less than your highest number. This averages ~$1,145 / year, again for the seven (7) years of a rating.

If a minor design change is done to the safe all that may be required is paperwork. However, if the change is deemed significant enough then retesting may be required.

The company needs to only send one (1) safe for testing although it is recommended to send a backup, so the company may be out two (2) safes for the test.

The rating is good for seven (7) years.

If a manufacturer has Model A and wishes to upgrade to model A-1 it may maintain its rating OR it may need to be reevaluated.

That is pure BS and you know it.

Most of the cost on the high-end safes is for the name, and all the frills. Sturdy gives you a no-frills safe that is purely utilitarian. They aren't the most aestetically appealing safe on the block, but they do their intended job. Most of the savings are from saving on UL testing and the savings from not adding all the frills. Look at them, they have a plain handle, plain paint, few decals etc. Take all those things off and you can see where the cost savings come from. I assure you that Sturdy isn't saving money by using inferior materials and methods. If you feel that they are then please tell us how they are falling short on materials and methods.

My statement was overbroad and probably in error, so I will retract it. However, I still stand by a portion of my statement based upon todays research that "the significant increase in cost for those with ratings is NOT due to the cost of testing."

You cannot be guaranteed on a UL tested safe either... so what is your point? The only thing you can be sure of is that the particular safe they tested did its job against the attacks they performed on it.

Actually I can be guaranteed that the product I purchase that has been UL tested to certain consistent standards and has passed those tests. While any product can fail based solely on luck a product tested by UL has been tested consistently and rigorously by people really trying to make them fail.

Greater effort? Please tell me where they weren't putting forth a great effort? They laid the safe down and they were using every pound of their body weight, what more can you ask for. You also forgot to address the fact that they weakened the safe in the critical areas. They took bolts out to make it more pryable. So lets put those bolts back in, then tell them to put forth a greater effort, they still aren't going to get anywhere. Have you ever seen a Sturdy safe in person? Let me throw this out there for you:

Now, lets take an actual safe that they didn't cut out to make easy to pry, we wouldn't even be having this conversation because you absolutely cannot get a prybar into a Sturdy safe. That is a dime for reference, and that is not manufacturer propaganda, that is from a happy Sturdy owner.

I stand by my opinion of their lack of effort. I rewatched the video and burst out laughing when Terry daintily stuck his little screwdriver into the doorframe. Priceless...

Do you really think that two employees making a sales video with the owner standing around are really going to try to undermine their allegation of how great their own product is??? Tell me you are not that naive!

If you are going to test a product then it should be tested in its original configuration! Without doing so you change the parameters of the product and thus the consistency of the test.

What he did by altering the safe is using the fallacy of begging the question. When we "beg the question" we use an "inference that assumes as evidence in the premises the very thing it attempts to prove in the conclusion." In this case Terry presumes the safe cannot be opened without altering, and when he alters it he does not truly test the saves ability to withstand an attack.

The nice picture of the dime and the door is using the fallacy of fake precision. I can just as easily show a picture of dime being unable to slide into my filing cabinet. This proves nothing. On my filing cabinet you could easily pry in with a screwdriver. Perhaps on the gunsafe you would have to slam into it with a hammer and prying tool. But just showing the picture of a dime next to it proves nothing other than in normal circumstances the door is tight.

Propaganda? Not hardly, but of course the videos are done to convince a consumer to buy their product. That's how capitalism works, are you faulting them for producing the videos?

Propaganda. Yes, 100%. Unequivocally. Perhaps you do not like that term. Should I use "Sales Pitch", "Advertising", "Biased Marketing", "Hype", or "Limited, biased information designed to induce in the observer a certain belief or feeling."

I do NOT fault them for making the video. That IS their job in the free market to sell their product. You are 100% correct here. Who I fault is US for swallowing it hook line and sinker without questioning it or recognizing it for what it is: propaganda.

ETA, Terry believes that you shouldn't "need" the word of some expensive testing company that says your product is good. He believes that your product should speak for itself and your marketing should be word of mouth. IMHO, that is working out pretty good for him. He has gone from a small company to a huge safe manufacturer in a matter of years, purely by word of mouth from happy customers.

Well, this is where Terry and I will have a divergence of opinion. Worldcom and Enron started small somewhere too. Microsoft is the largest computer OS system in the United States but that doesn't make them good, although they have improved. The size of a company is not (regrettably) an indication of their quality.

As much as I disagree with your points I concede you may be right. Sturdy safes may be an excellent product that does exactly what they are supposed to do. But the cold truth is neither you nor Terry can prove it.

Obviously you have been sold on the product and I truly and sincerely hope for your and your family that should your safe ever be tested by whatever misfortune may come that it will perform better than advertised!!! I don't want anyone to loose any of their firearms or valuables to any theft or fire.

My only real question to you is: Why are you so opposed to UL testing? I am not trying to agitate here but it appears that you have been sold a bill of goods and just do not want to question its quality.? I cannot understand that when making an important purchase you would be so opposed to an unbiased opinion regarding the quality of the product.

Terry could be a good, decent, honest guy who tries to make the best product he can, but I did not grow up with Terry and do not know Terry.

Even if I did know Terry I would also know that he has, at least partially, a self serving interest in me buying his product. When he sells a safe that is food on his table, a roof over his head, hopefully a nice car to drive. So he isn't going to tell you or me the bad parts of his product.

This is where my belief in a third party that is unbiased comes into play. Underwriters Laboratories doesn't give a darn which safe I buy. Their commitment is to honestly determining the reliability of the product tested without preference or prejudice. This is why I will only by a UL rated safe.

I don't want to just focus on slamming Terry and Sturdy safes. My opinion goes for ALL gun safe manufacturers who do not submit their product to UL testing. I will question anyones product who is unwilling to allow it to be tested by a third party that will truly scrutinize it for its ability to perform.

Regards,

Doug

 

[CountryBoy19]

This morning I personally called Underwriters Laboratories. Misty answered the phone at extension #4.

Well, then I've been misled. I apologize for that... thanks for making the call to clear it up.

Actually I can be guaranteed that the product I purchase that has been UL tested to certain consistent standards and has passed those tests. While any product can fail based solely on luck a product tested by UL has been tested consistently and rigorously by people really trying to make them fail.

Yes, a similar model has been tested and withstood those methods that UL subjected it to, but it doesn't mean that your specific safe won't fail. I think we're both on the same page here though, no use in arguing.

I stand by my opinion of their lack of effort. I rewatched the video and burst out laughing when Terry daintily stuck his little screwdriver into the doorframe. Priceless...

Do you even understand the purpose of doing that? The purpose was to show you that a person isn't going to get their hand in there and there was no way a firearm (a rigid object just like the screwdriver) will be able to come out of the safe.

Do you really think that two employees making a sales video with the owner standing around are really going to try to undermine their allegation of how great their own product is??? Tell me you are not that naive!

Did you watch the video. Tell me those guys weren't putting all their weight on that bar, did you see it flexing? What more can you ask for?
I honestly believe they were truly trying, if you don't, then that's your opinion.

If you are going to test a product then it should be tested in its original configuration! Without doing so you change the parameters of the product and thus the consistency of the test.

What he did by altering the safe is using the fallacy of begging the question. When we "beg the question" we use an "inference that assumes as evidence in the premises the very thing it attempts to prove in the conclusion." In this case Terry presumes the safe cannot be opened without altering, and when he alters it he does not truly test the saves ability to withstand an attack.

If he didn't alter the safe then we would be sitting there for hours watching 3 guys trying to get prybars in far enough just to pry. They would never succeed, and the purpose of the video would never be shown. The purpose of that video is to show how strong the bolts and the door frame on their safes are. Without those modifications the test wouldn't have successfully demonstrated that. If you fault them for the modifications then you have no point in arguing because you clearly don't understand the purpose of that video.

The nice picture of the dime and the door is using the fallacy of fake precision. I can just as easily show a picture of dime being unable to slide into my filing cabinet. This proves nothing. On my filing cabinet you could easily pry in with a screwdriver. Perhaps on the gunsafe you would have to slam into it with a hammer and prying tool. But just showing the picture of a dime next to it proves nothing other than in normal circumstances the door is tight.

Your filing cabinet is thin metal that will deflect if a screwdriver is pounded into it, a safe made of thick metal is not a comparison to such. The dime demonstrates that you aren't going to get a prybar in there. You may be able to drive a thin screwdriver in that gap, but anything thin enough to be driven into the gap is too thin to do any prying.

My only real question to you is: Why are you so opposed to UL testing? I am not trying to agitate here but it appears that you have been sold a bill of goods and just do not want to question its quality.? I cannot understand that when making an important purchase you would be so opposed to an unbiased opinion regarding the quality of the product.

I don't have anything against UL testing. My point is that a lack of UL testing does not mean a safe isn't secure or of good quality. Your posts implied that any company that doesn't have a UL tested product chose not to get it listed because they knew it wouldn't pass. That is completely untrue.

I don't want to just focus on slamming Terry and Sturdy safes. My opinion goes for ALL gun safe manufacturers who do not submit their product to UL testing. I will question anyones product who is unwilling to allow it to be tested by a third party that will truly scrutinize it for its ability to perform.

Questioning an untested safe is fine with me, heck, questioning any safe, tested or not should be an important part of the examining/buying process. Weighing in and giving your opinion on the quality of something that you yourself don't have any experience with is nothing but pure speculation on your part.

I understand your skepticism, I'm just trying to point out to people that the skepticism is unwarranted regarding Sturdy safes.