.460 S&W - Indiana Deer Legal?

[NealWright]

Here's a question I haven't seen answered, and my DNR officer kinda ho-hum'd about it.

If all these wildcat's can be used in Indiana ... 358BFG, 357Herrett Short, etc. But, only by trimming the case below standard spec's.

What's wrong with trimming the .460S&W, it's virtually as long as a 357 Herrett. Seems like a lot simpler route to go, and I think they've even factory chamber'd some bolt/lever guns in .460?

Thanks, Neal

 

[Indy_Guy_77]

You can use anything you want... As long as it's within the spec's.

Or buy a .460 Revolver.

-J-

 

[in625shooter]

The legal length for a rifle is 1.625 The 460 S&W overall length is 1.8 I recommend just recommend running 454 Casull which would be the same as trimming a 460. JMHO

 

[kludge]

.460 S&W - Indiana Deer Legal?

Handgun, yes. Rifle, no.

If you want to trim .460 ammo and use it in a rifle, go for it. Technically it's legal. Just don't use .460 load data in your .460 Short cases -- IOW, just use the .454 Casull cartridge as mentioned above.

 

[rhart]

If you're thinking WIldcat, take a look at the 445 Super Magnum. It's 1.60" and shoots a wide range of 44 caliber bullets. You can get a Encore barrel from TC or MGM makes them too. I have mine built but haven't got to shoot it yet

 

[NealWright]

Quite a difference ...

454 Casual: 1.383"
460 S&W: 1.80"
Indiana upper limit: 1.625"

Doesn't seem like trimming the 460S&W to 1.62" is anything like a 454Casual?

I've tried the 445SuperMag ... didn't really do it for me. Though I think it has very good merits ... brass is un-obtainum ... the T/C chamber allows brass to grow too much, so brass life is short ... and I worried about pressures, since the SuperMag was build for 44Mag pressures, and the 460S&W was build for centerfire rifle pressures.

Anyhow, curious about some other comments. Any input?

Thanks, Neal

 

[snapping turtle]

Here is my thoughts on pushing the limits on the indiana deer rifle OAL. If you cut down a 1.80 cartridge to 1.62 you are technically legal. You better not have an oal of 1.8 cartridge in the field with you, Legal but you have to prove yourself legal. Not worth the hassle of proving myself correct in my situation.

If you want a near 200 yard gun I think the 357 max will get you there. If you want the 460 in a rifle the ruger #1 is available,

 

[rhart]

I agree that the 357 Max is a good choice for deer as well.
In defense of the 445 SM, I like its versitality. You can shoot 44 spec, 44 mag or 445 in the barrel. Ballistically, its a 44 mag with 35% more umph! And you can get many bullets from 165 grain up to 360 grain bullets for this thing. I think you could easily not only use this for deer but elk and moose as well. The brass is hard to find and expensive but Starline makes it. I bought 100 rounds which I fiqured should last me a life time in a single shot with a lot of recoil.

 

[NealWright]

I use a 357Max right now, so yeah ... I really like this cartridge. All the constant talk about hot-rods always has me wondering though. And, one of the simplest to hot rod seems would be the 460, as it was designed around rifle chamber pressures.

So, if all these hotrods are bigger cartridges cut down to IDL spec's ... seems the 460 would be easy, without even modifying a gun. Has anybody tried something like this?

One of my current problems with the Max is bullets. I'm in a grey area, that doesn't really have proper bullets. At 2100fps muzzle velocity ... I'm too fast for most pistol bullets, and too slow for most rifle bullets. I've got a box of FTX's that will probably be my load for this year. But like I said, always curious.

Thanks, Neal

 

[kludge]

Quite a difference ...

454 Casual: 1.383"
460 S&W: 1.80"
Indiana upper limit: 1.625"

Doesn't seem like trimming the 460S&W to 1.62" is anything like a 454Casual?

OK, so, here's some load data from hodgdon.com...

First the .454 Casull with a 300gr bullet. Max load will get you to 1716 (in a handgun). I shoot 300 grain bullets at 1600fps out of my .454. I never want to shoot them at 1716fps, but that's beside the point.

Next up the .460... which you won't be able to load to the max, and if you're lucky, just up to the start load, if you trim. You are reducing the case capacity by 10% going from 1.8" to 1.62" (and increasing the pressure), so powder charge will likely have to be reduced by the same 10%, or so.

So you've got what, a 100fps difference between the max of the .454 and the start of the .460?

Not worth the difference, IMO.


.454 Casull
300 GR. FA JFP Hodgdon H110 .452" 1.775" 28.5 1618 44,200 CUP 30.0 1716 53,700 CUP

.460 S&W Magnum
300 GR. HDY XTP MAG. Hodgdon H110 .452" 2.160" 38.0 1825 43,200 PSI 42.5 2034 56,100 PSI

But OK, what about 240gr bullets?

2065 fps out of the Casull (max), and 2084 fps out of the .460 (start).

 

[snapping turtle]

I have a friend that has a 444 marlin short he uses for deer. That jump to the lands and grooves is what kills accuracy. He likes it but my 44 mag outshoots it at 100 yards. He might just beat me at 100 yards by this coming deer season. His loads have improved greatly. I think the 460 might be about the same.

If the 357 max is a single shot try speers 180 grain SSP bullet. Not a true big game bullet but it was built for metalic silhouette shoots and at long range is very accurate, I have used it in 357 max and 35 rem. Lets face it Indiana deer are not elk. If you can hit em in the heart/lungs they are not going very far.

Littlegun powder might get up velocity to rifle bullet speed without high pressure signs. Take this with caution as I have yet to use or see any loading data with littlegun and 357 max loadings. Seek hogdons help before trying this one. I have used littlegun in 44 mag and 357 mag loads for rifles and I can get near leverevolution speeds with it. I started using it for 22 hornet loads and it has steadly increased in usage since.

 

[rhart]

Here is some data on the .445 SM
200 grain Hornady Jacketed Hollow Point 1718 fps
220 grain Sierra FPJ Silhouette 1670 fps
240 grain Hornady Jacketed Silhouette 1596 fps
265 grain Hornady Jacketed Flat Point 1495 fps
305 grain Cast Gas Checked Bullet 1589 fps

 

[NealWright]

Don't fear ... Lil' Gun is awesome in the Max! Mild recoil, no pressure ... and I'm getting 2100fps with a 180g. I just recently bought a # of AA1680, as this is supposed to be getting another 100fps out of the Max.

I used a 180g Rem SJHP this year though, and it seperated from the jacket ... with a .35 hole going through the other side. Instant kill, but I'd still like the bullet to expand and stay together. This year I've got a box of 200gFTX, although I fear what it's going to do long range velocity (200yd).

Like the Max ... I don't think comparing pistol data is relevent for a rifle. 100% different powders. Basically, all you'd get with a short 460 is more powder capacity. Other than that, both Casual and 460 are 55ksi cartridges so I think they'd be safer than trying a Max or 445SM at 55ksi?

I don't know ... still hearing things out. I've never seen this discussed before, so figured I'd ask. Curious that somebody is using a 444Marlin "short" ... doesn't that come out the same as the 445SM? Plus, I thought you ran into case wall thickness issues trimming that far.

Another curiosity I have out there is BFG's 357 Herrett Short. I've got a set of dies sitting on the shelf. It cuts quite a bit of the neck off, but a bottleneck cartridge would be nice in the Contender. Or, using 6.8SPC brass for the Herrett in a bolt/auto?

One of the difficulties with the Max is that it's 1.62" of straight wall. The contender extractor only pulls it out about 1/16" ... then you've got to pull the rest, dragging brass and chamber the whole way. Mine doesn't extract anything that would be considered difficult ... but I have to remove my gloves to pull the case.

Just looking to talk some stuff. Take care, Neal

 

[kludge]

I'm also starting to like A1680. Meters like water. I've read that some people are having problems with LilGun in revolvers... seems like it is burning very hot and doing damage (flame cutting, erosion, and whatnot).

If you're thinking T/C, don't overlook the .358 GNR (.445 Super Mag necked down).

 

[NealWright]

I've seen the .358 GNR ... I think a shortened Herrett is just the same, and dies are sitting on the shelf. I don't know, but I'm sure Gary Reeder wants a pretty penny for his dies ... plus his trademarked cartridge reamers. Overall I think the GNR's are going to be overpriced. (read: I'm cheap).

Thanks, Neal

I'm also starting to like A1680. Meters like water. I've read that some people are having problems with LilGun in revolvers... seems like it is burning very hot and doing damage (flame cutting, erosion, and whatnot).

If you're thinking T/C, don't overlook the .358 GNR (.445 Super Mag necked down).

 

[snapping turtle]

My friend with the 444 marlin short is thick headed and stubborn as a mule. He got a great deal on a 444 marlin lever. (under 225 dollars) and though it was Indiana deer legal Hey a 44 mag or a 444 simple mistake. . Being laid off last september he did want to tell the wife he spent 225 dollars on a rifle he could not use so he started cutting down brass to 1.62 and experimenting. He has had issues with the brass so he did something fancy and got it to work and feed correctly.

P.s. I offered to buy the 444 at 225 and he would not sell it. I think he takes a 444 cartridge with him in the field but he would never admit to it. His 265 grain handload does wonders out of that gun.

 

[NealWright]

I could see doing what you've got to do ... but I sure wouldn't get caught with a full length 444 on me during deer season.

 

[snapping turtle]

I could see doing what you've got to do ... but I sure wouldn't get caught with a full length 444 on me during deer season.

Nor myself my friend. don't do anything illegal anymore. Sometimes I will smoke a cigarette to close to a building entrance. Where i hunt anything over 50 yards is a long shot to much heavy cover and no need for anything more than my 1894 44 mag.

 

[kludge]

I've seen the .358 GNR ... I think a shortened Herrett is just the same, and dies are sitting on the shelf. I don't know, but I'm sure Gary Reeder wants a pretty penny for his dies ... plus his trademarked cartridge reamers. Overall I think the GNR's are going to be overpriced. (read: I'm cheap).

Thanks, Neal

Well, for maximum cheap, I'd say get the .357 Mag H&R single shot and ream it to .357 Max and use 180gr SSP's.

In a 22-24" barrel I would expect you to get equivalent ballistics to the .35 Remington, and in a single shot it won't be any longer than a 18-20" barreled bolt action.

 

[NealWright]

I can guarantee .357 Max will not be close to .35 Rem! No where near the case there, but that's why the .35 isn't allowed. I get ~2100fps with 180g bullet, hoping to get a little more switching to AA1680 this year.

TC's came stock in Max, so no reamer required. However the local gunsmith says $35 to ream a Mag to Max chamber.

Thanks, Neal

Well, for maximum cheap, I'd say get the .357 Mag H&R single shot and ream it to .357 Max and use 180gr SSP's.

In a 22-24" barrel I would expect you to get equivalent ballistics to the .35 Remington, and in a single shot it won't be any longer than a 18-20" barreled bolt action.