21 foot rule: Man kills 2 police officers with a knife ( GRAPHIC VIDEO )

[Hooker]

The killer looked to be in decent shape after it was over; wonder how he would up dead three hours afterwards.

He probably sustained his worst injuries while in custody....off camera.

 

[Disposable Heart]

Some thoughts come to mind (and having been jumped by a knife man once):
1. Those saying that the police were running around scared: WHO WOULD NOT BE? I think the idea of "standing our ground" is a quick way for them to close distance and turn us into spiral sliced honey baked ham... MOVE, shoot if you must, but move, AWAY. The point of the gun is to maintain a STANDOFF method of defense, not a close up situation. If the bullet doesn't stop them at 7 yards, it will perform the same close up (or at least count on it doing that), heck maybe doing worse due to potential for more malfunctions when grappling with someone and trying to shoot.
2. Really shows what a determined guy with a knife can do. That knife he had looked "bowie-ish" and very long. That thing probably nicked hearts and internal organs. Kitchen knives and steak knives (pretty typical from what I have heard from officers) have an even worse edge: Serration. Youch...
3. Notice the knifeman's form? First few hits were wide, slashing, then a jump on, stab repeatedly. That is something to bear in mind. I have seen alot of footage (plus being mugged), that seems to bear a shocking similarity... First is to cut as one seems to be preparing for it, then stabbing when upperhand obtained.
4. Notice the ground? Uneven, clumps of grass. Hopped up on drugs or adrenaline, that is fall over territory... hard to move, shoot and not fall over. Realworld isn't a flat, concrete floor at the local shootin' hole...
5. Gunman seemed to have shallow breathing, chest wounds (some close to heart region). Would not suprise me if he had his heart nicked, but not damaged enough to bleed dry. His breathing in the audio was sucking, bet he collapsed a lung... That was a lot of beat down, but still in fight.
6. Aweful lot of ammo before he finally hit the ground. (Note, not die, but hit the deck). Something to consider. Accuracy compared to environmental concerns (terrain, cover, concealment) compared to skill, compared to range.
7. Rifleman was SEVERELY lacking in this. Could have supported his mates with their pistolas in his position. As one member said earlier, would not suprise me if he didn't have any ammunition.
8. The guy seemed pretty cognitive of his surroundings. Maybe high, but seemed more drunk/angry than anything else.
9. Knifeman didn't fixiate on one target (except once, when the other officer's ran off). We are so used to focusing on one target at the range that often multiple attackers are an issue. The knifeman seemed to try to disable one, then move to another. VERY scary... But something we can learn from in regards to multiple attackers, out of ammo and a good blade in your hand...

Misconfig, THANK YOU for posting that video!

 

[thompal]

7. Rifleman was SEVERELY lacking in this. Could have supported his mates with their pistolas in his position. As one member said earlier, would not suprise me if he didn't have any ammunition.

The rifleman was the only one to close with the bad guy, when (in my inexperienced opinion) I would have thought that the rifleman should have held back and maintained his sight picture and firing lines. Instead, he was the only one who gets within a few feet of the bad guy, changes his grip on his rifle, takes his eyes off the bad guy, and bends down well within foot or knife range.

Then, after the bad guy is hit, he is left alone for a long period before he is cuffed, but could possibly have still been a threat and re-engaged the cops from behind.

 

[Sticky]

So much for tactics. A good example of how to do almost everything wrong. Maybe the cops thought he was a cartel member...

 

[jayhawk]

I don't know if it is so much an issue with the 21 foot rule not being followed as it is an issue with the "don't cross a fence when a fence separates you from a guy with a knike" rule not being followed.

 

[ChalupaCabras]

I have a hard time believing that this isn't fake... WTF?

Yea, i GET the whole "i can kill you from 21 feet with my knife if I attack without warning" thing.... but to PWN so many people who have guns and already know they are in a situation? *FACEPALM*

 

[melensdad]

The FBI recently increased the distance to 33 feet. it used to be 21 feet based on the research done by Teuller.

So to tell people there is a 21' foot rule is to tell them the old standard.

Its the 33-foot rule now.

 

[sbcman]

I don't know if it is so much an issue with the 21 foot rule not being followed as it is an issue with the "don't cross a fence when a fence separates you from a guy with a knike" rule not being followed.

Bingo

 

[christman]

They should ban knives...

 

[Timjoebillybob]

I don't think in terms of how law enforcement is handled in Latin America, that what happened would count as "roughed up."

From what I saw in the video, I don't think I would count it as "roughed up" here in the states.

 

[Bond 281]

Remember, you KNEW it was coming. I used to do the Tueller drill with my students and could routinely get 75 feet before they could draw and shoot from concealment... KNOWING it was coming.

Now, I haven't done a whole lot of training or anything. It seems to me though that if I were in close proximity to an angry man with a knife with a rifle in my hands he wouldn't make it even 10 feet before getting shot. As I understand the 21 feet is drawing from concealment right? Distance really had nothing to do with the video when he spends 20 seconds chasing the cops like chickens or something and they don't shoot him.

 

[E5RANGER375]

It comes down to poor training...if any at all. Action ALWAYS trumps reaction. Nice to see the community so involved in helping the wounded officers. Sadly, in may communities local, we cannot count on that kind of help. When Dave was shot (and later died) there were people watching him in the snow and did NOTHING. He was dying as they were just watching.

That ****ing pisses me off. I might have my reservations on what I will say if stopped, but if I saw a cop needing help (before or after) and could give it I would do it in a heartbeat. I know he was doing his job that day, but thats exactly another reason I wont go into "those" neighborHOODS. nothing good comes out of it.

 

[XMil]

From what I saw in the video, I don't think I would count it as "roughed up" here in the states.

Hell, I've seen teenage girls get worse just for walking away.

 

[Denny347]

Hell, I've seen teenage girls get worse just for walking away.

 

[XMil]

The temptation was too great.

 

[Walter Zoomie]

When Dave was shot (and later died) there were people watching him in the snow and did NOTHING. He was dying as they were just watching.

Holy Jesus! I did not know this.

Another reason I could never do your job...

I would have called in an airstrike on that neighborhood.

 

[jdhaines]

Untrained sheep in uniform are untrained sheep nonetheless.

The AK should have been pointed in center mass and any movement other than the slow opening of his knife hand dropping knife should have resulted in immediate mag-dump. Knives are more dangerous than guns and you are much more likely to survive being shot than being in a knife assault. From the FoF's I've been to, there's no way in hell I'm playing the "dodge-the-knife while shooting you" game.

When you throw in a determined attacker, with nothing to lose, and some sort of drug-induced altered state of mind, bad things happen.

 

[sbcman]

Untrained sheep in uniform are untrained sheep nonetheless.

The AK should have been pointed in center mass and any movement other than the slow opening of his knife hand dropping knife should have resulted in immediate mag-dump. Knives are more dangerous than guns and you are much more likely to survive being shot than being in a knife assault. From the FoF's I've been to, there's no way in hell I'm playing the "dodge-the-knife while shooting you" game.

When you throw a determined attacker, with nothing to lose, and some sort of drug-induced altered state of mind, bad things happen.

Right on. I don't know why some people don't understand how deadly knives can be in the right hands (or, in the vid's case, crazy hands). I had my wife watch this just as a reminder to us both to take knife threats seriously and never hesitate.

 

[Benny]

Some folks call it a sling blade. I call it a kaiser blade. Mmmhmm

 

[Kutnupe14]

That ****ing pisses me off. I might have my reservations on what I will say if stopped, but if I saw a cop needing help (before or after) and could give it I would do it in a heartbeat. I know he was doing his job that day, but thats exactly another reason I wont go into "those" neighborHOODS. nothing good comes out of it.

It's the bystander effect. It's not uncommon nor particular to any type of neighborhood. An 80 year old guy passed out from heat exhaustion at 116th/Gray last year, and nobody stopped to help. The only way we found out, was when a passerby call 911, and told us that there was a man lying face down, on the side of the road.