12ga, Pump Action Shotgun for home defense

[johnjw77]

I have shot 870's all my life and dont have one bad thing to say about them. Im also in the market for a HD shotgun and am honestly considering a 500 just for the safety location. I feel I would have no issue popping the safety on an 870 even in the most intense home invasion situation since I have shot them for so many years it just comes natural, but my family is who im worried about. I think even after plenty of times explaining it the 500 safety just seems more natural and obvious to most people, especially in a hectic situation.

I still think im going with the 870 though, just means more field time for the fam

 

[bonsaijackson]

Agree with all the above, 870/mossy 500. there are two different stores here in btown with the mossberg 500 with the 18.5 inch barrel, collapsing stock and, side shell holder for $350.

 

[triton54]

For my HD gun I purchased the Mossy 500 persuader--18.5" smooth bore-- with 7+1, pistol grip in 12ga with 3" chamber.

for less than $300

 

[johnjw77]

For my HD gun I purchased the Mossy 500 persuader--18.5" smooth bore-- with 7+1, pistol grip in 12ga with 3" chamber.

for less than $300

funny story, I had an army budy who thought his pursuader was the coolest shotgun ever created. He was being deployed and said he would cut me a deal on it before he left. The day before his deployment he came over and told me $300 and it was mine, lol. Said he paid $550 at Dons Guns and had never shot it. Thought our army guys were smarter than that...

 

[triton54]

funny story, I had an army budy who thought his pursuader was the coolest shotgun ever created. He was being deployed and said he would cut me a deal on it before he left. The day before his deployment he came over and told me $300 and it was mine, lol. Said he paid $550 at Dons Guns and had never shot it. Thought our army guys were smarter than that...

mine was bare bones... I added all the b&W's u know Laser, heatsheild and side sadle shell holder... I would hope know one would take advantage of a soldier

 

[Gungho_1989]

I prefer the 870 overall when it comes to pumps, as stated there is nothing wrong with a Mossberg either.
As far as the safety location I like it better on the 870 for a few reasons you do not have to shift your grip to manipulate the safety on a Remington. Especially if you go with an aftermarket safety. You simply bump it with your second knuckle as you enter the trigger guard.
Either gun will hold up well through alot of rounds but I feel the Remington edges out the Mossy in durability again this is hotly debated.
In the end for most people either gun will serve you well but the 870 is has a bit ,more versatility as well especially if your looking for a good HD gun.

 

[Gungho_1989]

I would suggest that, unless you are a shooter and used to the recoil of a 12 gauge that you NOT buy a 12 gauge. Even if you are an active shooter and can manage the recoil, a 12 gauge may not be the best choice.

I've been looking over the whole concept of home defense shotguns and I deviate from the crowd with my recommendations. I strongly recommend 20 gauge shotguns with either #3 or #4 BUCKshot, not 00 BUCKshot, and not BIRDshot.

Here are my reasons:

• First, a 20 gauge delivers at the muzzle 70% of the energy of a 12 gauge; it is MORE THAN ENOUGH to drop a man with 1 shot.
• Second, a 20 gauge only has 50% of the recoil energy of a 12 gauge; that means faster 2nd shots if more than 1 person is attacking your home and easier to control for smaller adults, teens, women, etc.
• Third, 00 BUCKshot is roughly equal to bunch of 33 caliber balls, they have been proven to OVER penetrate people, walls and houses and can put your pets, children or other loved one in peril even if they are 2 or 3 rooms away from you. #3 and #4 BUCKshot are roughly 25/24 caliber and are large enough to effectively 1 shot stop a man dead in his tracks, which gun author/master/trainer Massad Ayoob has documented many times, and yet it is small enough to NOT over penetrate walls.

Melensdad not to bust your chops here but I disagree with a couple of items. Let me say most of this is based on my opinion as what I have learned over the years. I don't have a Doctorate in shotgunning or anything else but I have been involved with defensive and offensive shotgunning for a while.

20 ga shotguns have a tendency to be lighter than their 12 gauge counterparts, What you would appear to gain is lost sometimes due to that in recoil, also the loadings for 20 gauge are limited to full brass loads for the most part where the 12 guage has multiple loadings in managed and reduced recoil loads, which are effective manstoppers.
For a individual looking for a defensive shotgun for their home I recomend a 12 ga with managed or reduced recoil 00 you match this up with a Knoxx stock or a Enidine setup 870 youlle get less perceived recoil that you would out of a 20ga. I tested this theory on my then teenage daughters and they both like the 12 much better than a similiarly set up 20ga. Of course the only loads we had to test in the 20 were full brass 00 and slugs.

Massad Ayoob is a great guy and knows his stuff better than most but...
When using light wieght pellets on people wearing t shirts in the southwest in the summer time your going to get good solid hits with the penetration needed to stop an attack or threat. But in the Midwest where it can get rather cold and folks start wearing layers of clothing in the winter you run into the other side of that coin. Other instructors and experts have over the years come to teh conclusion that 00 buck and slugs are the best option when dealing with potentially violent criminals.

Over penetration is an issue with almost anything bigger than #7 You always have to be aware of the backdrop and creating the impression that you won't have that issue is irresponsible and potentially deadly. If you think 24 to 25 caliber pellets will not over penetrate then run some Box O truth type tests, or look here for his results. The Box O' Truth #3 - The Shotgun Meets the Box O' Truth - Page 1

When running shot through the box of truth the #4 buck penetrated 6 layers of drywall. The 00 buck penetrated 8 I beleive he used standard brass loads against common dry wall.

Look at the last part, "lessons Learned" I agree personally with his conclusions and especailly this part

"In fact, tests have shown that even #4 Buckshot lacks the necessary penetration to reach the vital organs. Only 0 Buck, 00 Buck, and 000 Buck penetrate enough to reach the vital organs.

Unless you expect to be attacked by little birds, do not use birdshot. Use 00 Buck. It will do the job."

Again I am not trying to come across wrong here or bust on any ones opinions but there were a couple of things I felt there needed to be another opinion on.
Regards
Ron

 

[P-Shooter]

If you want to stay around $200, get a Maverick 88. They are solid shotguns, made by Mossberg, and have a good reputation. I've seen the 18" Mavericks for around $200 at local Indy gun shops. I've owned 2, and never had a problem with them. You can add different stocks/pistol grips and a shell holder later, if you want. They are basically a budget Mossberg 500, with the safety in a different location.

X2, I've had mine since 1999 with no problems so far. Pretty much all accessories for the Mossberg will fit on it, and Bradis had several for $200 a couple months ago. Nice guns for a great price.

 

[triton54]

Melensdad not to bust your chops here but I disagree with a couple of items. Let me say most of this is based on my opinion as what I have learned over the years. I don't have a Doctorate in shotgunning or anything else but I have been involved with defensive and offensive shotgunning for a while.

20 ga shotguns have a tendency to be lighter than their 12 gauge counterparts, What you would appear to gain is lost sometimes due to that in recoil, also the loadings for 20 gauge are limited to full brass loads for the most part where the 12 guage has multiple loadings in managed and reduced recoil loads, which are effective manstoppers.
For a individual looking for a defensive shotgun for their home I recomend a 12 ga with managed or reduced recoil 00 you match this up with a Knoxx stock or a Enidine setup 870 youlle get less perceived recoil that you would out of a 20ga. I tested this theory on my then teenage daughters and they both like the 12 much better than a similiarly set up 20ga. Of course the only loads we had to test in the 20 were full brass 00 and slugs.

Massad Ayoob is a great guy and knows his stuff better than most but...
When using light wieght pellets on people wearing t shirts in the southwest in the summer time your going to get good solid hits with the penetration needed to stop an attack or threat. But in the Midwest where it can get rather cold and folks start wearing layers of clothing in the winter you run into the other side of that coin. Other instructors and experts have over the years come to teh conclusion that 00 buck and slugs are the best option when dealing with potentially violent criminals.

Over penetration is an issue with almost anything bigger than #7 You always have to be aware of the backdrop and creating the impression that you won't have that issue is irresponsible and potentially deadly. If you think 24 to 25 caliber pellets will not over penetrate then run some Box O truth type tests, or look here for his results. The Box O' Truth #3 - The Shotgun Meets the Box O' Truth - Page 1

When running shot through the box of truth the #4 buck penetrated 6 layers of drywall. The 00 buck penetrated 8 I beleive he used standard brass loads against common dry wall.

Look at the last part, "lessons Learned" I agree personally with his conclusions and especailly this part

"In fact, tests have shown that even #4 Buckshot lacks the necessary penetration to reach the vital organs. Only 0 Buck, 00 Buck, and 000 Buck penetrate enough to reach the vital organs.

Unless you expect to be attacked by little birds, do not use birdshot. Use 00 Buck. It will do the job."

Again I am not trying to come across wrong here or bust on any ones opinions but there were a couple of things I felt there needed to be another opinion on.
Regards
Ron

That is the longest response I have seen. congrats on the award

 

[Nayls47]

Well be prepared for a debate. Your best choice is an Remington 870, or Mossberg 500. You can find a good used one for the price you stated. Persoanly, I would save and buy new. I'm just leary of buying used guns. In terms of what stocm that's really a personal decesion. You need to find what is more comfortable for you. However the safety on the Mossberg is better suited for a straight stock. Where the Remington safety is better suited for a pistol grip stock. Try and find something with a 18.5", or 20" barrel. As for ammo double 00 buck shot. It holds a tight pattern. I would avoid slugs in the home, because there will be serious over penetration. !DISCLAIMER! You will get some that say Remington is better, or some that say Mossberg is better. They are both reliable and accurate. Like I said find what fits you, because you is the only one that needs to feel comfortable with it.

I agree with the above statement I might even prefer a semi-automatic. I would go with as short of barrel as what is legally possible. I think that it's 18" . You don't want anyone getting a grip on it and diverting it or taking it away from you.

 

[rimfire_crazed]

Go with the shortest legal barrel you can get. Try swinging a 24'' barrel in your hallway and see how much stuff you hit.

If you're not an experienced shotgunner, avoid the lone pistol grip. They look cool but will be hard to control - and in a stress situation even harder. I prefer a standard stock, with or without a tactical pistol grip. You should be able to find an 870 in that configuration sub 300. Mossberg even less.

Here's hoping you'll never need to fire it in a defense situation!

 

[H.T.]

Here comes my opinion. I would go with the Saiga 410 with #4 or #5 shot. Saiga is basicly an AK Shotgun. They come in 12Ga,20Ga and 410Ga. The 410 has a 10rd detachable box mag. You can get higher Cap mags.

A 410 with #4 or #5 shot has the same KE (Kenetic Energy) as a .357Mag. Plus as been mentioned it's penteration through walls is slim to none.

I would say that all the weapons mentioned so far are very good for home defense. I sugest you go to a Gun range where you can rent diffrent shotguns or get some friends who own ones you are thinking about. Fire them all see what you think and fire them again.Then Rinse and repeat. Find what fits for you and your wife. Look at pattern an penetration. Measure distance from the edge of your bed to the door, down the hall etc. Try to get an average of the possible encounter distances in your home. Then set targets at these ranges. If possible get pieces of dry wall to fir at..Remember to use two pieces with 2x4 in between them.

Hope this helps.

God Bless
I hope this helps.

 

[Gungho_1989]

Here comes my opinion. I would go with the Saiga 410 with #4 or #5 shot. Saiga is basicly an AK Shotgun. They come in 12Ga,20Ga and 410Ga. The 410 has a 10rd detachable box mag. You can get higher Cap mags.

A 410 with #4 or #5 shot has the same KE (Kenetic Energy) as a .357Mag. Plus as been mentioned it's penteration through walls is slim to none.

I would say that all the weapons mentioned so far are very good for home defense. I sugest you go to a Gun range where you can rent diffrent shotguns or get some friends who own ones you are thinking about. Fire them all see what you think and fire them again.Then Rinse and repeat. Find what fits for you and your wife. Look at pattern an penetration. Measure distance from the edge of your bed to the door, down the hall etc. Try to get an average of the possible encounter distances in your home. Then set targets at these ranges. If possible get pieces of dry wall to fir at..Remember to use two pieces with 2x4 in between them.

Hope this helps.

God Bless
I hope this helps.

Again You want the best tool for the job. A half ounce of lead from a .410 is significantly less than a full ounce or better out of a 12 gauge.
Again #4 has less of chance of penetrating to vital organs than 00 or even 000. #5 shouldn't even be a consideration. Period. This has been debated and argued on multiple forums people have run tests on everything from dry wall to half a hog over the years trying to prove their points, on the honest tests. It always ends the same 00 and slugs give the highest percentage of one shot stops.


Once you stop a bad guy there is always the crap that comes along after the fact Lawyers, lawsuits etc.. A maimed bad guy in a civil suit that is permanently disabled, disfigured or mentally damaged over the results of being shot, with a talented and twisted lawyer may have more rights than a scared homeowner trying to defend themselves or loved ones. He may end up with more than he came for that night. Legally.

Whatever you decide on buy ammo and find someone who knows what their about and get some instruction. Then take that training and walk through your home and find your safe zones, your no fire zones. Educate yourself and your family.
I don't want to discourage anyone from a .410 if its the most someone can handle but its not the optimum tool, And if your dropping down to a .410 Go with slugs or Buckshot.
Myths, misconceptions and conjecture

 

[pudly]

Gungho-
This an interesting discussion. We've had it before on this board, but it is good to see some additional details brought to the conversation. I tend to side with Melensdad and made a similar selection- 20 gauge with #3 buckshot. This decision was based on my reading and my home situation- a standard frame house in a residential area (<20' to the next house on either side). Minimizing wall penetration while still being effective was my basic selection criteria. If you are located in an isolated area or live alone, your selection criteria might be very different.

For a individual looking for a defensive shotgun for their home I recomend a 12 ga with managed or reduced recoil 00 you match this up with a Knoxx stock or a Enidine setup 870 youlle get less perceived recoil that you would out of a 20ga. I tested this theory on my then teenage daughters and they both like the 12 much better than a similiarly set up 20ga.

Hadn't considered such a heavily buffered arrangement for the 12 gauge. Interesting to know that it can be brought down to the 20 gauge recoil level. The basic 12 gauge shotgun/load is far more punishing on the user. Reduced recoil rounds fire at a lower speed. Also, wouldn't the shock-absorbing stocks further reduce speed? I don't really know, so I'd appreciate any info that you might have. I'm curious how this arrangement affects penetration.

The Box-o-Truth is a great resource. Since others like to quote them, I'll point to one that sealed my decision. Box-o-Truth #22 evaluated the 20-gauge. They demonstrated the water jug equivalent of 12 inch penetration with #3 20 gauge buckshot. Bingo- effective penetration with minimized risk of overpenetration and nasty side effects.

It always ends the same 00 and slugs give the highest percentage of one shot stops.

Although I've decided to go with a smaller gauge, I at least understand the argument for 00. I'm surprised to see you recommend slugs however. Aren't they the king of overpenetration? Unless you are in an isolated area and aren't worried about misses potentially hitting a loved one, I'd be very wary of such a recommendation.

 

[Steve]

Have to recommend the 12 ga over the 20 gauge. Lots of different shell options with it. Would NOT recommend the pistol grip set up for a newbie. Can be brutal on you when fired. Maverick 88--. Great gun. $200.00 brand new at Bradis. 5+1 capacity. Get one with an 20" barrel for HD and buy a 2nd 28" used barrel for it as well. Now you've got the best of both worlds for under $300.00. Bradis has both and you'll get change back from 3 $100.00 bills.

 

[Gungho_1989]

pudly thanks for pointing some items out. It may have seemed I was down on the 20 Ga let me clarify that I am not.
The 410 now I think is a terrible idea for a man stopper with anything but slugs or its limited payload of buckshot. Personal opinion based on available data and field experience.

I feel the 20 ga makes an adequate home defense gun I wanted to dispel a couple of myths about it though and point out some of the limitations it has especially the ammo selection issue.

Even when ammo was readily available getting appropriate 20 ga loads for HD was not easy. Or inexpensive.
With proper loads I feel the 20 ga will do the job fine.

Here is my position on over penetration. First If I pull the trigger on some miscreant I am going to make dang sure of my backstop, also I am going to make dang sure I do my absolute best not to miss him, I go for a center mass hit, Once this guys hit in the oven his fire should go out if you use the proper load. 000 I can live with as I mentioned. 0000 is iffy and #5 is absolutely out of the question in my opinion.

If you do your job his body is going to absorb the majority of the energy from the 00 so if you do get a pellet or 5 pass through they should have lost most of their ability to do terminal damage especially if they encounter more building materials. it all drains away their lethality. Now If you made sure of your back drop then at this time you have greatly reduced your chances of hurting an innocent, ( The fish tank doesn't count )

Now if you cannot clear the back stop and you absolutely have to take the shot drop your muzzle and hit them right in the pelvis. This will drop them instantly, there may be a little thrashing and squealing but it should pass quickly, Bone and their butt should absorb the vast majority of energy from the buckshot plus your getting a deeper . It is a fight stopping hit and it greatly reduces their chances of showing up to harass you in court later. Its not the best option but it may be your only one if lives hinge on that particular moment.
I didn't recommend slugs as a primary load, I was just pointing out the obvious conclusions of the tests. I do myself however keep a couple of slugs in the side saddle. Pointing up, Just in case I need to penetrate a bit of cover or hit a miscreant from a bit of a distance.
A quick aside none of this works well without a bit of homework, training and practice. (Call of duty modern warfare does not constitute training ) And all the training in the world does nothing but increase your ability to protect yourself in a bad situation. It definitely doesn't guarantee it.

The box of truth you posted is fascinating, The end of that story was pretty enlightening though, wow.
I have not seen any studies or reports of how the recoil reducing setups affect velocity. It is a great question that I need find an answer to though.
On the 00 though even at reduced velocity it should prove highly effective due to its mass.

 

[Gungho_1989]

Melensdad and your conclusions and opinions are valid. I don't agree with the 0000 but beyond that... I'm ok with it.
This is the statement that gave me the most concern
"and yet it is small enough to NOT over penetrate walls."

 

[U.S. Patriot]

Here comes my opinion. I would go with the Saiga 410 with #4 or #5 shot. Saiga is basicly an AK Shotgun. They come in 12Ga,20Ga and 410Ga. The 410 has a 10rd detachable box mag. You can get higher Cap mags.

A 410 with #4 or #5 shot has the same KE (Kenetic Energy) as a .357Mag. Plus as been mentioned it's penteration through walls is slim to none.

I would say that all the weapons mentioned so far are very good for home defense. I sugest you go to a Gun range where you can rent diffrent shotguns or get some friends who own ones you are thinking about. Fire them all see what you think and fire them again.Then Rinse and repeat. Find what fits for you and your wife. Look at pattern an penetration. Measure distance from the edge of your bed to the door, down the hall etc. Try to get an average of the possible encounter distances in your home. Then set targets at these ranges. If possible get pieces of dry wall to fir at..Remember to use two pieces with 2x4 in between them.

Hope this helps.

God Bless
I hope this helps.

Honestly I would not go with anything smaller then a 20 guage. To me using a .410, would be like grabing a .22LR, instead of my AK. Yes different situation, but you want to end the threat with the least amount of shots fired. Of course shot placement is always key. I guarantee the courts will eat you up. If you wind up pumping some guy full of multiple rounds. Not because of bad shot placement per say, but because of improper load choice. Even if he was found to be under the influence of drugs, or alcohol. You will have a much better chance, if you shoot a guy once or twice with a proper load. If they ask why such a powerful round. You tell them that your life was in danger, and you wanted to stop the threat with the least amount of rounds fired. For the safety of your family, yourself, and depending where you live your neighbors. If the guy is full of lead, then they might judge your reasoning behind owning a gun. Even if it's to do with an improper load. Sorry for the rant. We where always tought in the service, to stop a threat with the least ammount as rounds possible for court reasons.

 

[U.S. Patriot]

Just to shead some more light on the discusion. None of my buckshot is reduced recoil. I look at it this way. If I'm going to be in a prolonged ingagment, It's not going to be with a shotgun. If I can not stop someone with 5 shots of 00 buck. Then I might as well throw the gun at them and run. When I say stoping, I do not mean firing rounds while the perp is behind cover or concealment. I'm talking face to face conflict. It's good to keep some slugs at hand, though I would use them as a last resort in a home or apartment. I have two types of slugs.

1. Breneke KO slugs
Muzzle velocity=1,000 fps
Muzzle energy=2,491 ft. lbs.

2. Breneke reduced recoil tactical home defense slug. Yes I know the wording is a bit odd if you ask me.
Muzzle velocity=1,378 fps
Muzzle energy=1,854 ft. lbs.

That's 637 less ft. lbs. of energy, and 378 more fps. But still get the job done if need be. I still say 00 buck is your best bet for home use. Only use slugs as a last resort, and remember which direction you are firing.

 

[derek17]

i would use a mossberg 500 or the remington 870. you would want a shorter barrel around 20 inches. i have a mossberg 500 and satisfied with it.