10 Shot MOA Groups

[dross]

In all honesty, how many of you have rifles that will shoot 10 shot groups under an inch at 100 yards?

I ask because I recently did a test with a super accurate AR I have. If I shoot groups the way most rifle reviews are done I could say this: "it will shoot sub half inches all day if I do my part." Of course that means discounting "flyers" and foregoing the standard "That had to have been me," and all the other excuses.

I bought 10 boxes of different match ammo and shot only 10 shot groups. I had one type that would put 10 shots in .95 inches, and another that put 10 in 1.5 inches. The rest ranged from 1.6 to 3.7 inches.

If I had calculated the way MOST rifle reviews calculate - average of three shot groups, discount "flyers" - all but two of the rounds would have been "sub-MOA" and some would have averaged less than a half inch.

How can you really tell how accurate a rifle is when there's no good base of 10 shot group comparisons, even on the internet, where sub MOA accuracy is as common as 10 inch p......ie plates?

 

[Whitsettd8]

In my personal experience accuracy is a very subjective term. What I call accurate a lot of guys on here would laugh at what other people call accurate I call the broad side of barn. A lot of shooters tend to fluff their skill. Sub moa shooters at work get to the range and put up a 2 inch group at 100 yards using a lead sled with their "tack driver" . For me the only gun that might come close would be my CZ 550 in.308 shooting federal match and that would be with PERFECT conditions.
My method is very similar to yours I get a reference for the right grain weight for my twist and buy several boxes of factory ammo; whatever shoots the best is what it eats from that point on out.

 

[jblomenberg16]

My best was a 1.2 MOA 10 shot group from my Savage 10FP in .223. 8 shots were sub MOA (probablly sub .75MOA) with 2 fliers that were clearly my fault. One was high and left and another wide right...so I must have done something a little different in those two shots.

It will reliably shoot sub 1.5 MOA even with my poor skills. I've also hit a 4" round steel plate at 400yds (~1 MOA) 5 of 5 consecutive shots.

The key is of course a gun that has the capability, a load that is matched for the gun, and a person behind the trigger that knows what he's doing. Your test shows that certain ammo really makes a difference in your gun. If it is a .223/5.56, I would almost bet that ammo was using 68gr Hornady HPBT Match, or 69gr Sierra SMK's. Both shoot very well from my Savage (1:9 twist) and AR15 DMR clone (1:9 twist).

 

[42769vette]

I have 2 rifles that will do 10 shot groups sub moa.

When I see someone talking about sub moa groups, and discounting fliers on a 3 shot group the post loses all credibility with me. If you had a If you had a "flier" its not sub MOA in my book.

 

[avboiler11]

I personally find five 5 shot groups to be more representative of accuracy (and precision, IE point of impact relative to point of aim) than a 10-shot group. As such, I don't think I've done any 10-shot groups with any rifle that I have.

I would say many folks use 3-shot groups because it validates the basic accuracy of a rifle/ammo combo.

I have a Remington 700 Mountain LSS in 260 that will cloverleaf 3 rounds, but the 4th is a 1/2" out and the 5th about an inch outside that. Does that mean the rifle isn't accurate? Absolutely not. It means the pencil contour barrel has gotten stupid hot and is throwing fliers, but seeing as its a lightweight hunting rifle, 3 is MORE than sufficient.

 

[sloughfoot]

Every High Power competitor's 10 shot groups are well documented by their score keeper. There is no excuses allowed.

I have won a few matches with sub moa groups. But that was when I was really something.

It is nice to see that target come back up with that clump of shot spotters clustered in the center. Or to see someone else's target come back up with a small group.

Highpower competition is all 10 shot groups. It isn't easy. But it's fun. And real.

 

[indyjohn]

I also have two that shoot minute of angle; both were built for competition. And they are both gas guns.

My other long guns can shoot right at MOA because I've derived handloads that are mated specifically to their actions. If you eliminated (or greatly reduced) the ammo variable, your super accurate AR would be.

But that was when I was really something.

In my book you still are!

 

[shibumiseeker]

I own three rifles that unto themselves (bolted into a rest) can do honest sub-moa 10 shot groups. My best can do .6moa with the ammo I load for it. Each time. Every time.

I know this because I did my load development with 10 shot groups so I could get the best idea of accuracy.

One of them is an AR I built for accuracy, and I hand-feed each round. One is a .50bmg Ferret50, and the other is a Rem700 with A5 stock and 18"bull barrel.

*I* on the other hand, am at best a consistent .8moa shooter with my best rifle from a prone position with bipod and rear rest. I tested my loads at 200 and 400 yards.

 

[Dixiejack]

I never put much stock in a sub moa 3 shot groups. Ok for sighting in a close range (out to 200 yds) rifle, but it does not prove the true accuracy or inaccuracy of a rifle. i prefer 5 shot groups from my old BR shooting days. So many factors go into moa or sub moa shooting. Shooter skill ( separate topic in itself), the rifle, ammo factors, range factors, and attitude all must be combined to accomplish the end goal. Lots of range time with one rifle until you wring out the best you and a rifle can do is the most important. Guess I got off track, JMHO.

 

[sloughfoot]

In my book you still are!

Thanks John. Nice of you to say that. The most coveted trophy on the wall is the ISRPA, First Master with Match rifle at the State Championships in 2007. I shot a 780 with 12.

I shot plenty of MOA groups or better that day at 200, 300, and 500 yards to only drop 20 points all day. With a sling and from position.

I think you were two firing points down from me that day.

FWIW, I have shot lots of 775's that didn't win anything... Because I was shooting against you....

 

[jblomenberg16]

Thanks John. Nice of you to say that. The most coveted trophy on the wall is the ISRPA, First Master with Match rifle at the State Championships in 2007. I shot a 780 with 12.

I shot plenty of MOA groups or better that day at 200, 300, and 500 yards to only drop 20 points all day. With a sling and from position.

I think you were two firing points down from me that day.

FWIW, I have shot lots of 775's that didn't win anything... Because I was shooting against you....

WOW...that is quite a feat!

 

[indyjohn]

Thanks John. Nice of you to say that. The most coveted trophy on the wall is the ISRPA, High Master with Match rifle at the State Championships in 2007. I shot a 780 with 12.

I shot plenty of MOA groups or better that day at 200, 300, and 500 yards to only drop 20 points all day. With a sling and from position.

I think you were two firing points down from me that day.

My best [STRIKE]effort[/STRIKE] result. Second year of Highpower. Score was in the 710s. It was one of those "every dog has his day" days..



Yep. Total Thread Highjack by the Highpower boys (again...)

 

[sloughfoot]

You take what you can take. The guys who have never slept on the club house floor at Miami R&P before the next mornings match will never understand.

I don't know how many nights I have slept in my suburban in the used car lot at 31 and 152 before an Atterbury match.

 

[indyjohn]

You take what you can take. The guys who have never slept on the club house floor before the next mornings match will never understand.

Roger that. Talking with LoveMyWoods at the 1500 last Saturday, it seems there's a lot of long gun owners that have never shot past 100 yards, can't even imagine 500 yards. And we're trying to drop 20 rounds into a six inch ring at that distance? Ha!

 

[sloughfoot]

I am proud of it, but on the same day, Littlerat on this forum, Gary Chaney probably shot a 795 or better. He is a totally awesome shooter. Thank goodness i don't have to shoot against him....

 

[indyjohn]

I am proud of it, but on the same day, Littlerat on this forum, Gary Chaney probably shot a 795 or better. He is a totally awesome shooter. Thank goodness i don't have to shoot against him....

Thank God he got bored with us and moved on to Pistol. Not sure which discipline but I'm sure he's breaking hearts there as well.

 

[top hat 45]

i am in awe or you guys that can see open sights and shoot sub moa group. my eyes have have developed to have a need for scopes. that being said i do have 3 rifles that will do .5 moa from the bench with my daughter shooting them.

 

[indyjohn]

i am in awe or you guys that can see open sights and shoot sub moa group. my eyes have have developed to have a need for scopes. that being said i do have 3 rifles that will do .5 moa from the bench with my daughter shooting them.

HEY CRAZY BENCHREST SHOOTER! How's the weather where you are? Go look in General Firearms Discussion, LoveMyWoods posted about your Barrel Tuners!

 

[sloughfoot]

i am in awe or you guys that can see open sights and shoot sub moa group. my eyes have have developed to have a need for scopes. that being said i do have 3 rifles that will do .5 moa from the bench with my daughter shooting them.

if you really want to do it, I will show you how. it really is not difficult. It just takes some concentration and a good rifle. And motivation.

 

[top hat 45]

HEY CRAZY BENCHREST SHOOTER! How's the weather where you are? Go look in General Firearms Discussion, LoveMyWoods posted about your Barrel Tuners!

john, it got in the 60's today with a 20plus wind. i know from missyb its real cold at home.


not hijacking the post, open sights arent what i thot the op wasnt referrring to. like i said you guys are awsome that can shoot sub moa without a scope.

i like a scope to shoot 100yds at a dot to know what my poa is every time, in lieu of a black dot you use.


many people discount scope power to be not needed for accuracy, ultimate accuracy for reloading referance, or trigger pull weight changes, are the only way to see a positive change in group sizes.


when you shoot for a group with a good scope a point of aim different from poi is important so you havent shot away your aiming point. a hole of .22 wouldnt be much differe nt through an 8 to 12 power scope at 300 yds but would an invalid poa with a 30 plus power scope.

\all depends on your wants for accuracy .