Contact Shots With a Pistol - Gabe Suarez

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  • esrice

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    Standard disclaimer. . . no affiliation. . . blah blah blah
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    [FONT=Verdana,Geneva,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif][FONT=Arial Black,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]CONTACT SHOOTING WITH A PISTOL[/FONT][/FONT] [FONT=Georgia,Times New Roman,Times,serif]
    contactshot-2.jpg


    I will begin by saying that I hate groundfighting. I hate rolling around on an asphalt surface getting my clothes ripped and my elbows and knees ground onto the concrete. I hate it but I cannot ignore it. With the rise in popularity of the UFC and the prevalence of Brazilian Ju Jitisu, the idea of fighting on the ground has become a reality and a likelihood regardless of your exposure and training. Like it or not, the complete fighter must have an understanding of ground fighting as much as an understanding of knives and other things not associated with the sterile shooting range.

    In my opinion, the most important thing when fighting on the ground is to find a way to get back up. Unlike the sporting arena, you won't be facing one guy and while you are submitting the one adversary, that is taking for granted that you are better at this than he, his buddy will walk up behind you and stomp your brains out into the gutter. the ground is NOT where you want to be.

    Secondly is getting your weapon out and working, whether it is a knife or a pistol. If you can manage to get a pistol out, I suggest gettinmg as much of its magazine's contents into your adversary's body as you can.

    The problem that we see come up all the time in our "play time" is that when the muzzle of the pistol (very few guys carry revolvers anymore) is jammed into the adversary, the weapon will not function. The solution we came up with in training is to physically keep the weapon in battery. This can be done in a myriad of ways.

    One way to do this is to simply block the slide into battery with your body as you physically press into the adversary either in the guard or the mount.

    contactshot-3.jpg


    Another way is to physically block the slide with your hand as you press it into the adversary's body. There are several ways to do this either by blocking the slide with your palm, blocking it with your thumb, or by actually grasping the slide with your hand. The one caveat would be those silly compemnsated pistols and avoiding the vents.


    contactshot-4.jpg


    To lock the slide in place simply place your support side palm hard against the back of the slide. While we are shooting into a piece of card board here, please remember that the end of the muzzle would be jammed into the adversary's body.

    contactshot-5.jpg


    If only one hand is available, you can simply bring the back of the thumb up and lock the slide into place with it. One hand is often needed to control the adversary so this may be the only option you have.

    contactshot-6.jpg


    Finally, simply grabbing the slide and locking it in place is a fast and easy way to keep the pistol in battery in a grounded or clinch struggle.

    We introduced this concept at our recent Zero To Five Feet class in Czech Republic. Many of the attendees were accomplished MMA and BJJ fighters as well as accomplished Protective Service operators and they loved the concept, and utilized it with glee during our force on force exercises. Take a serious look at this application. As always, proceed with caution.
    [/FONT]
     

    shooter521

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    I'm guessing having to shoot like that would be painful as hell...

    Actually it's not. In training classes, I've fired my Glock 17 and 23 holding the slide in the manner shown in the last photo, with no ill effects at all.

    Of course, a contact shot to a real BG means you're probably gonna get some on ya... :puke:
     

    CarmelHP

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    Of course, a contact shot to a real BG means you're probably gonna get some on ya... :puke:

    That's one problem, I saw an analysis of close shots years ago that suggested you're only going to get one shot. The puncture sprays a mixture of blood, fat, and flesh directly toward the origin of the shot, often disabling the gun from cycling for a follow up.
     

    Tinman

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    I will preface this by saying I’ve never had to shoot anyone at contact distance, so my experience is based on training and force on force evolutions.

    Personally, I really hate the thought of intentionally turning my pistol into a single shot tool. In a fight of this nature, it’s very easy to get muzzle averted, or just plain have a bad index and miss the shot you intended. I’d hate to have my only shot out of pistol skip across a guys love handles doing no real damage only to impact the concrete behind him and spray us both with fragmentation.

    The way I have always been taught to execute the contact shot is to index the pistol in the pectoral muscle (or the #2 draw position for those who are familiar with that term) and fire without the weapon in direct contact with the opponent. In cases where you’re already indexed on the bad guy somewhere, the procedure was to retract the weapon slightly off the bad guy allowing it to cycle freely.

    I have successfully used both techniques in force on force with both sims guns and airsoft. Since both of those are very easy to push out of battery and don’t exactly cycle the slide with great gusto, I assume the same techniques will work with live ammunition.

    The biggest thing drilled into me whenever we were doing contact distance shooting is Indexing. You must have your hand, the gun, something indexed on your body so you’re sure where the muzzle is pointed, and often you are using biomechanical indexing on the bad guy to find the vital parts of his body to shoot.

    Hope that makes sense without pictures…..

    As far as getting some on ya, well I would probably say more than some.

    I have heard the stories about how stuff will fly off the bad guy during the shooting and jam the gun, but I have had the opportunity to personally speak with two guys who were in live fire contact engagements with pistols. Both said the same thing, the guns ran fine, but close your mouth before firing. Just as an anecdote, one shooting was with a SIG 229 in a hotel bathroom, the other was a Glock 22 in a hallway so I don’t think it was necessarily platform dependant.

    Tinman....
     

    Disposable Heart

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    Seems to be a valid arguement for a revolver. :D

    This is good information however: I see ALOT more folks, bad or good (doesn't matter) gaining more and more experience/interest in "ultimate fighting". I have had a few experiences regarding this as drunks/malcontents think they what they see on TV, they can automatically do. I can see alot more "rollin around on the ground" occurring in areas populated by the demographic that is appealed to by ultimate fighting in regards to a potential mugging. While most muggers may not leave unarmed, if their primary method of "incapacitation" is disabled, ineffective, etc... they would probably resort to a more "contact" oriented method of fighting as opposed to a martial art or backup weapon.

    This is also a valid arguement for a knife in your repertior (SPELLING!). They don't go out of battery and chances are, it will be out anyways in a situation like this. But being able to grapple and counter grapple attempts by the enemy would probably be key. The reason I carry a gun is to keep them away, using range as a benefit. The reason I carry a knife is for the contact stuff. I, for one, hate the concept of rolling around on the ground. I am a stronger dude, but NOT a heavier one. Strength means little if I have a guy like Rhino tackling me! :D But, grappling may be an important tool to have in the toolbox if push comes to shove, then goes to the ground!
     

    esrice

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    Personally, I really hate the thought of intentionally turning my pistol into a single shot tool.

    This was my first thought after reading the article. He first recommends "[FONT=Georgia,Times New Roman,Times,serif]gettinmg as much of its magazine's contents into your adversary's body as you can[/FONT]", but then advocates manually locking the slide in place during contact shots, which will cause the gun to not cycle. A bit contradictory.

    However, like anything else, its good to know what can be done, and what options are available.
     

    Tinman

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    This really wasn't in the discussion, but grappling is incredibly important today. Even more than UFC, how many 14 to 18 year old boys have come out of high school with a basic wrestling repertoire? Not all of those are choir boys. Although the single or double leg takedown on a mat may not do any real damage, but if you don’t know how to defend it and it’s done on the concrete, you could be unconscious before you even know what just went wrong, or worse.

    If you want to learn how to fight on the ground, learn positional dynamics, and how to gain a dominant position. This will go a long way towards allowing you to access whatever tool you choose, and employ it correctly.

    For the record, I’ve seen more fights on the ground in FoF ended with a blade than a gun, by about 5 to 1. I can’t explain it, but there is something about the blade at this distance that makes it almost easier to employ than the blaster.

    Tinman....
     

    Tinman

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    Here are a couple of links to some older discussions we had around here:

    https://www.indianagunowners.com/forums/tactics_and_training/22581-deploying_a_pistol_from_the_ground.html

    https://www.indianagunowners.com/forums/tactics_and_training/7666-what_moves_do_you_really_use_in_h2h.html

    If you get a chance, talk to ShadowHouse, he's a certified ground game stud.

    Also keep in mind that although contact shots do occur on the ground, they happen a lot more in the standing clinch enviroment.

    Steve,
    have fun this weekend, unfortunately, I'll be gone so I'll miss out. You coming down in October for Southnarc?

    Tinman....
     

    Steve MI

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    Dude i so wish

    I will be on whirwind tour

    1 week with paul howe
    then off to tenn again for a week with T1G

    then super dave in az and add onteachinga 3 day sclass after that while there
    and a trip to see pat in between it all.
     

    Steve MI

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    One thing to look for and understand
    weapons mounted lights make great standoffs for contact shooting as well as striking plates

    the only thing i have contact shot has been a live deer. no ill effects no gun Malfs
     

    TFin04

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    Tac light standoff is one of the main reasons why I got rid of my 34 and went back to a 17. It is rare it will ever matter, but if we're preparing to shoot somebody trying to hurt us why not be able to shoot them in as many positions as possible? The diff between a 17 and 34 was negligible and I like this set up a lot. Cut the grip down to a 19 size, removed the finger grooves and stippled it as well. It's years of me evolving the perfect Glock for my needs. I love it.
     

    MTC

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    One thing to look for and understand
    weapons mounted lights make great standoffs for contact shooting as well as striking plates

    the only thing i have contact shot has been a live deer. no ill effects no gun Malfs

    Tac light standoff is one of the main reasons why I got rid of my 34 and went back to a 17. It is rare it will ever matter, but if we're preparing to shoot somebody trying to hurt us why not be able to shoot them in as many positions as possible? The diff between a 17 and 34 was negligible and I like this set up a lot. Cut the grip down to a 19 size, removed the finger grooves and stippled it as well. It's years of me evolving the perfect Glock for my needs. I love it.

    I'm on my way. Got to learn more. Up close and personal.
     

    Steve MI

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    I have actually spent time on the glock option force block it worls well but again no free lunch custom holsters only .
     
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