Frontline "Hot Guns": investigation into how criminals get guns

[wakproductions]

frontline: hot guns: "How Criminals Get Guns" | PBS

 

[deltaecho]

..many straw purchases are conducted in an openly "suggestive" manner where two people walk into a gun store, one selects a firearm, and then the other uses identification for the purchase and pays for the gun. Or, several underage people walk into a store and an adult with them makes the purchases. Both of these are illegal activities.

With behaviors like these, it's no wonder the ATF conducts stings on FFLs...In that position I'd rather deny service than potentially sell a gun to a criminal.

 

[mkgr22]

Oh, yeah, you can always trust the ATF. Just google "Fast and Furious".

 

[Hookeye]

Is there a legit national "hot list" for stolen guns or are such lists regional?
Do ALL stolen guns end up on a "hot list"?

What is "stolen" ???

Gramps goes to FL for a few months, comes back and finds safe missing some items (or all items). Grandson stole 'em, but unless gramps presses charges.................they won't end up on a list and instead just float away................who knows where they went, maybe all those who got them from the idiot grandkid, believed his story about "inheriting them"............were legal to own guns, maybe not.

Dunno.

Heard of a few snowbirds having such issues, and none pressed charges.

Stolen but not stolen.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

There's only one solution....universal background checks.

 

[sb0]

ATF officials say that only about 8% of the nation's 124,000 retail gun dealers sell the majority of handguns that are used in crimes. They conclude that these licensed retailers are part of a block of rogue entrepreneurs tempted by the big profits of gun trafficking.

That's a hell of a conclusion to make. Did it occur to them that maybe this 8% of dealers are located in higher crime areas than the rest?

If it was a smaller percentage I could buy it but this is pretty thin.

 

[LarryC]

Yeah, and I am real sure the criminals that gave information to the ATF were all quite truthful -NOT!

I am also sure that there is no way to really know if many guns first sold in the 20th century that was recovered in 2014 was "stolen". A firearm could have been stolen 15 years ago, reported and the records gone, or it could have been stolen and not reported etc. There are probably more guns on the black market (in criminals possession) then criminals in need of one!

 

[BogWalker]

That's a hell of a conclusion to make. Did it occur to them that maybe this 8% of dealers are located in higher crime areas than the rest?

If it was a smaller percentage I could buy it but this is pretty thin.

Did Don's Guns open a few new locations maybe?

 

[churchmouse]

With behaviors like these, it's no wonder the ATF conducts stings on FFLs...In that position I'd rather deny service than potentially sell a gun to a criminal.

Many LGS are just chasing the money.
Yes, that is why the start a business. Profit.
If that is your sole reason for being in business pick something with less regulations.

 

[Bradsknives]

Is there a legit national "hot list" for stolen guns or are such lists regional?
Do ALL stolen guns end up on a "hot list"?

What is "stolen" ???

Gramps goes to FL for a few months, comes back and finds safe missing some items (or all items). Grandson stole 'em, but unless gramps presses charges.................they won't end up on a list and instead just float away................who knows where they went, maybe all those who got them from the idiot grandkid, believed his story about "inheriting them"............were legal to own guns, maybe not.

Dunno.

Heard of a few snowbirds having such issues, and none pressed charges.

Stolen but not stolen.

NCIC (FBI) is a national data base where stolen property is suppose to be entered, but it does require every LE department to enter it and I'm about sure that some times things fall through the cracks and don't always get entered.

 

[IndyDave1776]

I can't speak authoritatively, but I seem to recall reading that after a period of time guns entered into the NCIC as stolen are dropped if the entry isn't maintained before the expiration.

 

[Leadeye]

Their information needs better analysis as many of these posts suggest.

 

[ModernGunner]

Well, since PBS is a leftie-loon organization and has a quite specific agenda, it's wise to take any of their 'reports' with a huge block of salt.

A LARGE portion of firearms 'desired by criminals' are those not typically sold by 'regular' FFL holders. Full-auto firearms, for example.

Also HIGHLY dubious is the claim of "several underage people walk into a store and an adult with them makes the purchases." What, the 'adult' just told the firearms dealer "Oh, we're all just going on a weekend camping trip, and I figured I'd pick up a buncha AR's and AK's for kiddies"?

The report even contradicts itself when it states, early on, "Because when they want guns they want them immediately the wait is usually too long for a weapon to be stolen and find its way to a criminal". Then, a few paragraphs later states, "...27.7 % of these firearms were seized by law enforcement in connection with a crime within two years of the original sale. This rapid `time to crime' of a gun purchased from an FFL..." Since when was 2 years a "rapid time to crime"?

A further contradiction comes later with, "...Another large source of guns used in crimes are unlicensed street dealers who either get their guns through illegal transactions with licensed dealers, straw purchases, or from gun thefts." According to their skewed viewpoint stated earlier, stolen guns AREN'T a "large source", but later in the article they ARE?

And this, "13 percent of all arrestees interviewed admitting that they had stolen a gun." Odd, since the 'point' of the article claims stolen guns aren't a 'big issue'.

'Curious' that the article mixes up the fact that "56% said they paid cash; 15% said it was a gift; 10% said they borrowed it; 8% said they traded for it; while 5% only said that they stole it." As though the 89% listed 'COULDN'T' possibly be stolen simply because the criminal questioned didn't 'personally' steal it.

The most stupid 'summation' is, "If someone wants a gun, it's obvious the person will not have difficulty buying a gun, either legally or through the extensive United States black market." Probably the most inane 'observation' ever made about gun purchases.

NO s**t, 'Sherlock'! If someone wants a gun, unless they're building it them self, they ARE buying it 'either legally OR illegally'! Now, isn't that 'nice' how the article just 'coincidentally' lumps illegal AND LEGAL buyers together.

What garbage. Bet if we look into the background / voting record of "ATF agent Jay Wachtel", we'll find a rabid anti-gunner (toward law-abiding citizens), a staunch leftie-loon, and an ardent Obama / Holder (and cronies) supporter.

On this, I'll speak for ALL INGO'ers: Listen Watchtel, don't p**s on my shoes and tell me it's raining.

 

[Vigilant]

Many LGS are just chasing the money.
Yes, that is why the start a business. Profit.
If that is your sole reason for being in business pick something with less regulations.

Come on, EVERYONE that starts a business is in it for profit! I started my business for, you guessed it, PROFIT. If I wanted a non profit business, I'd form a church/ religion, and the rest of you could pay my share of taxes!

 

[IndyDave1776]

Come on, EVERYONE that starts a business is in it for profit! I started my business for, you guessed it, PROFIT. If I wanted a non profit business, I'd form a church/ religion, and the rest of you could pay my share of taxes!

I believe you missed CM's point. Of course the purpose of being in business is to make a profit. That doesn't mean that absolute indifference regarding what you may be doing to facilitate wrong-doing has to be part of the program. I know gun dealers who would tell questionable people to take a hike, as opposed to one in particular which comes to mind which appears to have no problem with his merchandise falling into a direct pipeline into crime. PSS and Bradis, for example, both sell a lot of guns and make a satisfactory profit without resorting to the gross indifference exhibited by another supplier whom I don't believe needs named for the purpose at hand.

 

[Leadeye]

From the gun dealer's perspective what does he do. A young minority ruffian comes into the store and wants to buy 5 SKS rifles, clean record no issues on checking, cash in hand. Does the gun dealer say, no sale because you look like the sort of young minority ruffian that will sell the guns to other young minority ruffians that have criminal records? Profiler! Racist! Call my personal injury attorney and then call the ACLU. The legal system sets the rules to go by and right now the safest course would be to sell the guns. Protect the FFL by statute and give them sole and final discretion on the sale.

 

[red_zr24x4]

Originally Posted by wakproductions ..many straw purchases are conducted in an openly "suggestive" manner where two people walk into a gun store, one selects a firearm, and then the other uses identification for the purchase and pays for the gun.. these are illegal activities.


Can't tell you how many times I've went with my sister in law, picked out a gun for the brother in law and she paid for it.... Christmas gifts, Birthday presents etc...

 

[revance]

I witnessed someone at Brady's refuse to sell because a couple tried to purchase a gun after the man was obviously the one shopping and the woman then tried to buy it. There was never any indication it was a gift and definitely no interest shown by the woman during the selection process. I think they offered to let her pay for it, but since it was obviously him shopping for himself, he needed to complete the NICS check. They then started asking the employee about what things disqualified you from purchasing. I never caught what the guy had on his record. Some people really are stupid.

 

[jgreiner]

Did Don's Guns open a few new locations maybe?

 

[cosermann]

For as long as I can remember, the common knowledge has been that the favorite method of criminals for obtaining guns is NOT straw purchases. Yes this is based on data [1].

The change in tune from the ATF ought to be easily recognized as political.

[1] - As an example of such data, take a look the US DoJ study, "Violent Encounters: A Study of Felonious Assaults on Our Nation's Law Enforcement Officers." See pages 50-51 of the following PDF for this quote, "Of the 33 handguns used to assault the officers who participated in the current study. . . 1 (yes ONE) was illegally purchased from a firearms dealer in a store (straw purchase by a female associate.)" - http://www.secondcalldefense.org/sites/default/files/pdfs/Violent-Encounters.pdf

This is just an easy example to cite. Every bit of data/study I've seen over the years says about the same thing.