NFA Trusts

[bm9mm]

I'm forming a living trust to register my class III weapons to and was wondering if anyone out there had done this and if so hade any useful advise.

 

[gunselman]

This is something that i have researched for the last year or so. I have heard many people say that it can be done with Quicken. Recently it seems that the ATF has not been approving Trust done in Quicken and programs of the such. From what i have read they have also been revoking NFA trust done in this manner. This is something that i didn't want to deal with; having NFA weapons in my house without the proper paper work. I decide to contact the guys at NFA Gun Trust Lawyer Blog :: Published by Florida Gun Trust Lawyer David Goldman
They specialize in NFA trusts. I got mine done for $600. I felt this was kind of high for the amount of work they had to do but at least i know it is done correctly. This company has a very good reputation and many people have gone this route. I figured pay the $600 one time and be safe the rest of my life or skimp and try and do it myself with the possibility of something going wrong.

It's well worth it to me.

 

[M4_556]

I had a local attorney do mine for a small fee. I really think it's worth a little extra money. He customized it to my family with an exhaustive plan of who gets what. In retrospect, I really think this is the way to go.

 

[CountryBoy19]

This is something that i have researched for the last year or so. I have heard many people say that it can be done with Quicken. Recently it seems that the ATF has not been approving Trust done in Quicken and programs of the such. From what i have read they have also been revoking NFA trust done in this manner. This is something that i didn't want to deal with; having NFA weapons in my house without the proper paper work. I decide to contact the guys at NFA Gun Trust Lawyer Blog :: Published by Florida Gun Trust Lawyer David Goldman
They specialize in NFA trusts. I got mine done for $600. I felt this was kind of high for the amount of work they had to do but at least i know it is done correctly. This company has a very good reputation and many people have gone this route. I figured pay the $600 one time and be safe the rest of my life or skimp and try and do it myself with the possibility of something going wrong.

It's well worth it to me.

Actually you're incorrect. There is only one incident of a Quicken trust not being approved (and that was after it was approved twice before) and the ATF asked the person to turn in their weapons. Instead, that person sought the advice of a lawyer, corrected his problems with the trust and all is well. The ATF is still approving trusts made with Quicken, and they'll approve any trust made by any person as long as it is legal. The ATF isn't combing over trusts to make sure they're all legit, and they're not looking at who/what made the trust. But if they catch a mistake you better bet they'll come down on you. A trust is a very simple document that places items in the care of a named person. It is how you want those items cared for that makes it more difficult, and that is what comes under scrutiny because Title II firearms require special care. If the trust doesn't address this there could be problems down the road when you pass on and the trust assets are divided amongst the beneficiaries etc.

IMHO, quicken trusts may be acceptable to some people, but it just isn't worth the risk. For $600 or less you can have a trust written specifically for NFA weapons use and you'll always have that lawyer to reference or question for the future.

I have a trust from guntrustlawyer.com. It cost me $600. That is a whole lot better than the local trust lawyer wanted (starting at $2,000 plus extra to include specific language for NFA weapons).

 

[dukeboy_318]

I'm forming a living trust to register my class III weapons to and was wondering if anyone out there had done this and if so hade any useful advise.

just a side note, my grandfather had a living trust done with his FAs and when he died back in 1999, it took my dad(who was already a registered class 3 owner) almost 2 yrs to get em transfered and he had issues with the NFA and ATF over the trust. my advice would be to contact your closest ATF or NFA agent or office and have them check everything out to make sure its how they want it. Not being very familiar with the paper work myself but just what dad and I discuss a while back about it.

 

[CountryBoy19]

just a side note, my grandfather had a living trust done with his FAs and when he died back in 1999, it took my dad(who was already a registered class 3 owner) almost 2 yrs to get em transfered and he had issues with the NFA and ATF over the trust. my advice would be to contact your closest ATF or NFA agent or office and have them check everything out to make sure its how they want it. Not being very familiar with the paper work myself but just what dad and I discuss a while back about it.

Would the troubles possibly stem from the fact that your grandfather placed them in trust without properly transferring them on a Form 4?

While trusts have always been permitted according to the NFA of '34, the ATF didn't allow them until a lawyer challenged them and won. I believe 2001 was when they first started allowing NFA items to be purchased and held by a trust. So I would think that if your grandfather had trust issues it would likely be a result of him illegally placing them in trust, as opposed to legally doing so and having troubles getting them transferred. Do you have anymore details on the situation? I'm curious to know.

 

[minuteman32]

I did mine via the Susie Orman estate planning DVD's we got for contributing to a PBS station a few years ago. It must've been okay, as I got 3 suppressors on it, so far.

 

[dukeboy_318]

Would the troubles possibly stem from the fact that your grandfather placed them in trust without properly transferring them on a Form 4?

While trusts have always been permitted according to the NFA of '34, the ATF didn't allow them until a lawyer challenged them and won. I believe 2001 was when they first started allowing NFA items to be purchased and held by a trust. So I would think that if your grandfather had trust issues it would likely be a result of him illegally placing them in trust, as opposed to legally doing so and having troubles getting them transferred. Do you have anymore details on the situation? I'm curious to know.

Ill have to ask my dad for more info on it, i do know that it was done in 1999 so it may have been part of the problem if trusts werent allowed until 2001. I do know that he ended up paying a tax stamp on each and every one, not sure exactly how it works, i just know it took him forever to get it sorted out but he did and everything nice and legal now

 

[CountryBoy19]

It must've been okay, as I got 3 suppressors on it, so far.

Just to re-iterate, just because ATF approved 3 transfers so far does mean that they agree that it is legal. The ATF doesn't not check every aspect of legality of trusts. They check the basics such as, the grantor cannot also be the beneficiary (that defeats the purpose of a trust in the first place). So even if you've had previous transfers approved, the ATF can decide at any time that your trust is not valid and they can force you to turn in your suppressors. There is one documented incident where a person had 2 approved transfers and applied for a third. Upon review of the trust on the third, the ATF found an error, and called the guy and told him that he needed to turn in his NFA weapons immediately. Instead of doing so, he sought advice from a lawyer and corrected the issue before the weapons could be seized.

IMHO, if you're going to make a trust with a program or video instruction, have it checked by a lawyer for validity.

 

[loony1]

I had a local attorney do mine for a small fee. I really think it's worth a little extra money. He customized it to my family with an exhaustive plan of who gets what. In retrospect, I really think this is the way to go.

who was you attorney?

 

[samot]

So even if you've had previous transfers approved, the ATF can decide at any time that your trust is not valid and they can force you to turn in your suppressors.

This can happen no matter how you decide to obtain yor C3 toys, wether it be trust, CLEO signoff, or Corp.....

 

[CountryBoy19]

This can happen no matter how you decide to obtain yor C3 toys, wether it be trust, CLEO signoff, or Corp.....

Yes, but the risk is greater with a trust formed by a computer rather than an actual lawyer IMHO.

 

[gunselman]

Ok maybe i was wrong that there was only one incident that this has happened, but to me once is enough. I think that we both agree having a lawyer draft this document is the safest way. When i went through guntrustlawyer.com they draft the document in their location (Florida) and they then send it to a lawyer here in Indiana to make sure it complies with state regulations. Well worth it to me.

Actually you're incorrect. There is only one incident of a Quicken trust not being approved (and that was after it was approved twice before) and the ATF asked the person to turn in their weapons. Instead, that person sought the advice of a lawyer, corrected his problems with the trust and all is well. The ATF is still approving trusts made with Quicken, and they'll approve any trust made by any person as long as it is legal. The ATF isn't combing over trusts to make sure they're all legit, and they're not looking at who/what made the trust. But if they catch a mistake you better bet they'll come down on you. A trust is a very simple document that places items in the care of a named person. It is how you want those items cared for that makes it more difficult, and that is what comes under scrutiny because Title II firearms require special care. If the trust doesn't address this there could be problems down the road when you pass on and the trust assets are divided amongst the beneficiaries etc.

IMHO, quicken trusts may be acceptable to some people, but it just isn't worth the risk. For $600 or less you can have a trust written specifically for NFA weapons use and you'll always have that lawyer to reference or question for the future.

I have a trust from guntrustlawyer.com. It cost me $600. That is a whole lot better than the local trust lawyer wanted (starting at $2,000 plus extra to include specific language for NFA weapons).

 

[CountryBoy19]

Ok maybe i was wrong that there was only one incident that this has happened, but to me once is enough. I think that we both agree having a lawyer draft this document is the safest way. When i went through guntrustlawyer.com they draft the document in their location (Florida) and they then send it to a lawyer here in Indiana to make sure it complies with state regulations. Well worth it to me.

Yes, we absolutely agree that a lawyer is best. I also went with guntrustlawyer.com. But I didn't want people to think the ATF was not approving quicken trusts because they are. Quicken trusts are still trusts, there is just a higher degree of risk that they're invalid or the language contained within could cause problems down the road pertaining to how the items are handled upon your death etc.

I hope you didn't take offense at my reply, I just didn't want disinformation out there.

 

[dukeboy_318]

Ill have to ask my dad for more info on it, i do know that it was done in 1999 so it may have been part of the problem if trusts werent allowed until 2001. I do know that he ended up paying a tax stamp on each and every one, not sure exactly how it works, i just know it took him forever to get it sorted out but he did and everything nice and legal now

talked to dad about it this morning, he said the ATF deemed the trust legal, the problem was that because of the number of items being transfered was big enough, it threw red flags up and they imposed a 1 yr waiting period to confirm that my dad or the family was not connected to any militia or anti government group. so by the time they ran the background checks for each weapon, it was into early 01 before he was finished

 

[ar15junkie]

Any board lawyers interested or capable of doing trusts for NFA?

 

[varasha]

Any board lawyers interested or capable of doing trusts for NFA?

HOLY THREAD RESURRECTION!!

Anyone local that will do a NFA Family Trust? I prefer to use a local person on a subject such as this because state laws weigh so heavily.

If anyone has an recommendations for a local firm i would appreciate it greatly, thanks!!

 

[CountryBoy19]

HOLY THREAD RESURRECTION!!

Anyone local that will do a NFA Family Trust? I prefer to use a local person on a subject such as this because state laws weigh so heavily.

If anyone has an recommendations for a local firm i would appreciate it greatly, thanks!!

guntrustlawyer.com will write a trust specific to a certain state's laws and then they send it to a local, IN attorney for review so there isn't any concern regarding state law. The trust WILL be reviewed by an IN attorney and it will come from that attorney on their letterhead even though the trust was actually written by a FL attorney.

 

[RomanDad]

Yes, but the risk is greater with a trust formed by a computer rather than an actual lawyer IMHO.

Absolutely. A trust is a trust is a trust. There is nothing particularly "Special" about the "NFA" variety (although, some will spend extra time writing letters to your successor trustees as to the NFA issues they are now faced with when you croak.)

Each states trust laws and requirements ARE different however, so going with generic advice from a lawyer in florida, or a computer program, and youre not sure that YOUR trust is LEGAL in YOUR STATE.

ANY competent estate/trust attorney in your area should be able to do one.

There HAVE been instances where an NFA form was approved, and a year or two down the road, theyve submitted one for a new item, and been told by the ATF "your trust is invalid." NIGHTMARE!

 

[CountryBoy19]

ANY competent estate/trust attorney in your area should be able to do one.

The problem is finding a local attorney that is also familiar with NFA items and knows how they need handled, and therefore knows what additional language to add to the trust to be sure all assets are handled properly in the event of the grantor's death.

That is why I like the guntrustlawyer.com trust. He knows all the proper language to include, and he is familiar with the laws of all the states where he does trusts. But he still sends it to an in-state lawyer to be sure it complies with the state laws.

I tried to get a trust done at the local competent attorney. First of all, if you don't do his very basic form trust, he wants $1500 base rate + $100/hr of his time to draft a special trust, and he told me that he was 99% certain that you couldn't put NFA firearms into a trust. I went elsewhere...

That just shows you that while local lawyer may know local trust laws very well, it still may not get you what you want in the end, and that is a trust that is absolutely bullet-proof. By doing guntrustlawyer.com you get the bullet-proof trust, and you get the local knowledge of the law, and it's very affordable as well.