Open Carry Places and Times?

[Wabatuckian]

Hello,

I'm reading of several establishments lately that harass over open carry.

While I do not usually open carry, I have no aversion to doing so.

In these threads it's almost always suggested that we all go and open carry at the place that offended us. However, I never really see this followed through.

How about listing places that need to host an open carry party? Being in Wabash, I can usually make it to Huntington, Fort Wayne, Marion, and places of similar distance.

In other words, how about let's follow through with these ideas?

Just post on this thread the place in which we need to show, and we can put our names down as participating, or not.

What do you think?

Josh

 

[bassplayrguy]

Sounds good

 

[Grump01]

To this respect, you may look up <OpenCarry.org> and check out their Indiana activities.

 

[mk2ja]

Subscribing to this thread so I can stay in the loop. Sounds like a good idea.

 

[snowman46919]

subbed

 

[youngda9]

First of all, I'm all for OC, and OC events are great. Having said that:

I fail to see how returning to a place you're obviously not welcome, en masse, will accomplish anything positive for the gun-totin community. If a single trial balloon got a negative response and asked to leave, or the like, wouldn't a larger group get the exact same response...and probably faster? And most likely turn-off people even more to OC.

Can someone explain the logic behind this? How does showing up in a big armed group going to get a better reaction?

The only possible benefit that I can see is that it would tell the place they are losing a lot of money by turning people away...all at once.

I think a better way to do it is for everyone to go there on their own time and OC, say make a point of it on a certain weekend...to each get tossed individualy. This would be a less agressive action/protest towards the establishment/management policies.

I just think a big group is not going to get 10 steps past the entrance of an anti-OC establishment, without being asked to leave immediately.

I don't think it is a good idea to go in a large group to get tossed all at once. It's like saying...hey, you tossed my friend(with a gun)...now I came back with all my buddies(with guns). Do you want to toss all of us as well? (This is how I believe it would appear to the magement of the anti-OC establishment).

Seems the negatives far out-weigh the positves.

Enlighten me if I'm off base.

 

[Wabatuckian]

1. People who legally carry guns are not threats and like to spend money.

2. By turning people who carry guns away, you lose money.

It's kinda' like the psychology behind dating a stripper: If you ever want to have a chance with a stripper in a strip club, don't ever tip, don't watch -- just go up to the bar and sit there.

The first time you tip, the stripper then sees you as a source of income rather than anything else. You cease to matter except as a source of income, so you don't pay 'em.

We want to use this psychology in the reverse when addressing guns. If we carry guns but spend well and tip even better, we're seen as a source of valuable revenue and the guns are therefore ignored, because they no longer matter.

Josh

 

[youngda9]

1. People who legally carry guns are not threats and like to spend money.

I agree. But in a place where OC-ers have been tossed already, showing up in a large group might seem like a hostile/challenging type action.

2. By turning people who carry guns away, you lose money.

Ageed again, and I said the same thing in my original post. But I believe turning away 20 single visitors has more merit and positives than turning away a single group of 20.

You're argument is about money...that's not what I'm disagreeing with.

I think that a large group showing up where you know you're not welcome is a challenging act. Yes, it gets the monetary point across. But I think it does more damage than good. Having a roomful of patrons see a group of armed men asked to leave cannot possibly leave all of those people with any sort of positive impression on OC as a whole. I think it does more harm than good to the cause.

Oh, and thanks for the stripper advice. I'll lock that back in my head under "useless information"...since I wouldn't want to date a stripper.

 

[snowman46919]

I agree. But in a place where OC-ers have been tossed already, showing up in a large group might seem like a hostile/challenging type action.


Ageed again, and I said the same thing in my original post. But I believe turning away 20 single visitors has more merit and positives than turning away a single group of 20.

You're argument is about money...that's not what I'm disagreeing with.

I think that a large group showing up where you know you're not welcome is a challenging act. Yes, it gets the monetary point across. But I think it does more damage than good. Having a roomful of patrons see a group of armed men asked to leave cannot possibly leave all of those people with any sort of positive impression on OC as a whole. I think it does more harm than good to the cause.

Oh, and thanks for the stripper advice. I'll lock that back in my head under "useless information"...since I wouldn't want to date a stripper.

Although I believe both of your point's to hold merit the things that could be taken as personal jabs (bolded) demean the point you are trying to make. I actually like the thought of getting a small bus with a poker table and each taking our turn being turned away from an establishment. It would seem to make a more valuable point that we are within our rights than showing up as a mob. Of course in the old days you were though odd if you didn't carry.

 

[Wabatuckian]

Oh, and thanks for the stripper advice. I'll lock that back in my head under "useless information"...since I wouldn't want to date a stripper.

What dusty part of my mind do you think I pulled it from?

I read that once, and it stuck because it applies to so many things. Basically, business contact vs. potential friend.

Josh

 

[Wabatuckian]

Although I believe both of your point's to hold merit the things that could be taken as personal jabs (bolded) demean the point you are trying to make. I actually like the thought of getting a small bus with a poker table and each taking our turn being turned away from an establishment. It would seem to make a more valuable point that we are within our rights than showing up as a mob. Of course in the old days you were though odd if you didn't carry.

Folks, I did take a look at both sides of the issue.

It's sort of a thing where, do you do classical conditioning, just one small step at a time, or kind of a shock therapy type deal?

As you and Snowman say, they both hold merit.

I do not know which holds the most merit. If 20 show up and spend an average of $10 apiece, he is rejecting $200, which, for that place (IIRC) is a $100 profit.

Might not sound like much, but it's a good chunk of business when you think about how long it takes to get 20 single customers, and it doesn't include tips. Also, heck, us guys, if we don't have anything smaller than a 20, we will tip with that $20 bill rather than ask for change!

Maybe a first trip with empty holsters, then a return trip with them filled?

What do you think of that? Medium steps?

Josh

 

[Hammerhead]

OC events are fun. Gathering a large group of like minded people for food and company is an enjoyable experience. Having that large group of people stand up en masse and leave after being bothered about having a sidearm (or banana, or cell phone, or a pencil and notepad) is joyous.

Story time. Back in the sixties, there was a group of soldiers, Army Rangers to be exact, that went to a restaurant together. They all sat down and began to order, except for the one black guy in their group who wouldn't be served. Halfway through the meal, the others realized how their brother was being treated. One of the men hollered out that the establishment wouldn't serve one of them. They all stood up, pushed their chairs in, and walked out.

This had nothing to do with civil rights. This had to do with a close knit group that didn't care about race, creed, or color, and more about blood, sweat and tears they'd all shed together. They wouldn't stand for one of them to be mistreated for any reason.

Why go all at once? Because one person being harassed and asked to submit individually doesn't prove a point. The lone gunman scenario is the thought of these people. Twenty or thirty armed people isn't a threat, it's a giant source of revenue and a security force. Plus, any police officer would have to call for the entire department, and several surrounding depending on where you're at, to even attempt to detain or bother thirty men exercising their rights. One look at a group of normal people that large, eating, behaving normally, and paying, and the officer responding would laugh all the way back to his car.

 

[snowman46919]

Folks, I did take a look at both sides of the issue.

It's sort of a thing where, do you do classical conditioning, just one small step at a time, or kind of a shock therapy type deal?

As you and Snowman say, they both hold merit.

I do not know which holds the most merit. If 20 show up and spend an average of $10 apiece, he is rejecting $200, which, for that place (IIRC) is a $100 profit.

Might not sound like much, but it's a good chunk of business when you think about how long it takes to get 20 single customers, and it doesn't include tips. Also, heck, us guys, if we don't have anything smaller than a 20, we will tip with that $20 bill rather than ask for change!

Maybe a first trip with empty holsters, then a return trip with them filled?

What do you think of that? Medium steps?

Josh

OC events are fun. Gathering a large group of like minded people for food and company is an enjoyable experience. Having that large group of people stand up en masse and leave after being bothered about having a sidearm (or banana, or cell phone, or a pencil and notepad) is joyous.

Story time. Back in the sixties, there was a group of soldiers, Army Rangers to be exact, that went to a restaurant together. They all sat down and began to order, except for the one black guy in their group who wouldn't be served. Halfway through the meal, the others realized how their brother was being treated. One of the men hollered out that the establishment wouldn't serve one of them. They all stood up, pushed their chairs in, and walked out.

This had nothing to do with civil rights. This had to do with a close knit group that didn't care about race, creed, or color, and more about blood, sweat and tears they'd all shed together. They wouldn't stand for one of them to be mistreated for any reason.

Why go all at once? Because one person being harassed and asked to submit individually doesn't prove a point. The lone gunman scenario is the thought of these people. Twenty or thirty armed people isn't a threat, it's a giant source of revenue and a security force. Plus, any police officer would have to call for the entire department, and several surrounding depending on where you're at, to even attempt to detain or bother thirty men exercising their rights. One look at a group of normal people that large, eating, behaving normally, and paying, and the officer responding would laugh all the way back to his car.

To be quite honest I like both methods of approaching this issue. As I am sure some of you are aware I have had issues with my open carry a lot closer to the heart than BWW or a bowling alley but rather a rift that has been raised in my own home about it. So I am up for anything that helps the cause.

 

[youngda9]

Although I believe both of your point's to hold merit the things that could be taken as personal jabs (bolded) demean the point you are trying to make. I actually like the thought of getting a small bus with a poker table and each taking our turn being turned away from an establishment. It would seem to make a more valuable point that we are within our rights than showing up as a mob. Of course in the old days you were though odd if you didn't carry.

I in no way meant my response to the "how to date a stripper" advice as a personal jab(Josh, I apologize and meant no harm)...just info that I really don't see is pertinant to this. I realize it was used to attempt to make a point, but a restaurant is only interested in money, there can be no alternative relationship such as described in the stripper example. I believe the second a guy walks into a strip club they are seen as a source of revinue in the first place...but this is so off topic I don't want to take that discussion any further. The psychology cannot be reversed because you will not be allowed to spend money in the restaurant(and thus your firearm ignored) because you will be turned away immediately upon discovery of firearm...especially fast in a large group.

I like the one at a time approach. Causes least commotion, still gets the point across, and doesn't give a restaurant full of people the opportunity to see a group escorted out...heck they may not even notice the hostess telling you all one by one that you can do a 180 and head back out the door. I think the idea of the NO $ card left behind is a great idea, and perhaps everyone leave a $50 of monopoly money as well...too funny.

 

[snowman46919]

I in no way meant my response to the "how to date a stripper" advice as a personal jab(Josh, I apologize and meant no harm)...just info that I really don't see is pertinant to this. I realize it was used to attempt to make a point, but a restaurant is only interested in money, there can be no alternative relationship such as described in the stripper example. I believe the second a guy walks into a strip club they are seen as a source of revinue in the first place...but this is so off topic I don't want to take that discussion any further. The psychology cannot be reversed because you will not be allowed to spend money in the restaurant(and thus your firearm ignored) because you will be turned away immediately upon discovery of firearm...especially fast in a large group.

I like the one at a time approach. Causes least commotion, still gets the point across, and doesn't give a restaurant full of people the opportunity to see a group escorted out...heck they may not even notice the hostess telling you all one by one that you can do a 180 and head back out the door. I think the idea of the NO $ card left behind is a great idea, and perhaps everyone leave a $50 of monopoly money as well...too funny.

wasn't saying it was a personal jab but with the new forum rules I would hate to have somebody have to take a vacation over a misconception.

 

[wolfts01]

This must be about that BWW thread. I have also noticed that we get all riled up and then forget about it a few days later.

I can argue the point for the group meeting due to one simple fact: I would not OC alone to make a point. Showing the 30-40 sheep in the establishment that there is one crazy armed guy doesn't accomplish anything but to reinforce their misconceptions. 20 armed citizens enjoying good food and company can defeat those misconceptions.

We just need someone to organize and hold us shy folk to our word.

 

[youngda9]

I can argue the point for the group meeting due to one simple fact: I would not OC alone to make a point. Showing the 30-40 sheep in the establishment that there is one crazy armed guy doesn't accomplish anything but to reinforce their misconceptions. 20 armed citizens enjoying good food and company can defeat those misconceptions.

If a restaurant will ask one person to leave, inconspicously...surely they would ask a large group that shows up armed in defiance of the wishes of the establishment, now the entire restaurant can witness a large group escorted out. I don't see the positives in this. And that is if you ever make it to a table, not likely if a large group shows up armed.

You kicked me out, now I returned with a bunch of my buddies...are you going to kick us all out...well, come on now...are ya ? (this would be the perception of the establishment where you are known not to be welcome)

Getting kicked out infront of a group of people...where is the up side? Who is convinced of anything there? If one lone gunman makes several people in the restaurant uncomftorable enough to complain to the management...somehow you think that many armed individuals will not have an amplified effect??

I can't imagine any positive impressions that come out of that situation.

OC group meetings at welcoming establishments...now I see a LOT of positives with that. But showing up en mass, in defiance, to a place you know you are not welcome...knowing that you'll be tossed...no upside there.

 

[Timjoebillybob]

It's kinda' like the psychology behind dating a stripper: If you ever want to have a chance with a stripper in a strip club, don't ever tip, don't watch -- just go up to the bar and sit there.

Josh

Not always.

Oh, and thanks for the stripper advice. I'll lock that back in my head under "useless information"...since I wouldn't want to date a stripper.

Why not?

Plus, any police officer would have to call for the entire department, and several surrounding depending on where you're at, to even attempt to detain or bother thirty men exercising their rights.

Why would they have to call for an entire department(or more)? I'm guessing that for the vast majority of INGOers, that one officer could detain and bother 30 of us. Because we are law abiding( for the most part anyway) people.

I realize it was used to attempt to make a point, but a restaurant is only interested in money, there can be no alternative relationship such as described in the stripper example. I believe the second a guy walks into a strip club they are seen as a source of revinue in the first place.

The second you walk into any business you are seen as a source of revenue. But there can be an alternative relationship with a restaurant, there is one restaurant in my town that I visit on a rare occasion, partially because of the food (best Chinese in a 100mi radius) and also because of the owners. Yes they are interested in getting my money for the food, but even if I never bought anything from them, I think they would treat me and just about everyone else that goes there the same. They go out of their way to make everyone feel welcome, and I don't believe it's just to make money.

I can argue the point for the group meeting due to one simple fact: I would not OC alone to make a point. Showing the 30-40 sheep in the establishment that there is one crazy armed guy doesn't accomplish anything but to reinforce their misconceptions. 20 armed citizens enjoying good food and company can defeat those misconceptions.

I do OC alone partially to make a point. People when they first see me may think at first OMG MAWG!!!! But after sitting at the next table over at the restaurant for 20 minutes or so, and me just sitting their with my pistol on my hip, enjoying dinner with my family, they might just realize that I'm a somewhat normal person.

Just to relate a couple of instances. One was a clerk at a gas station, she glanced down and in a loud concerned tone asked "Is that a gun in your pocket!!!" I answered calmly that yes it is a gun, but it's not in my pocket it's in a holster. She was a bit frazzled, but we had a nice talk afterward and she started to understand that I was not a deranged gunman, just someone who wished to protect my family and myself.

Another time I went to my local grocery store to pick up a couple of things kinda late at night, I noticed a couple of people whispering as I walked through the store. As I was checking out the cashier asked me if she could ask me a question. I kinda figured what it was so I told her to feel free. She asked me about why I was carrying and I told her to protect myself. We started talking it and a few minutes later one of the stockers walked up . And the cashier looked over at him and said ask him what you want, he's willing to answer any question. Well to make a long story not quite so long, about 30 minutes later, most of the store was up front talking to me. And I'm pretty sure I changed a few fence sitters minds.

Group efforts have their place also though. For instance 20-30 or so people with pistols on their hips and a rifle slung over their shoulder, walking through Indy with a flag and handing out fliers would probably get a better reception than if I did it by myself.

 

[snowman46919]

Group efforts have their place also though. For instance 20-30 or so people with pistols on their hips and a rifle slung over their shoulder, walking through Indy with a flag and handing out fliers would probably get a better reception than if I did it by myself.

I would have to run home real quick to get my rifle but when do we leave?

 

[Timjoebillybob]

I would have to run home real quick to get my rifle but when do we leave?

I don't know, your the organizer.